7 ms·

I don’t fear death, it is natural. I fear the suffering society will put me through when I’m old and ill, because they can’t cope with death. It’s good we are

by caseyy 1y ago

I don’t fear death, it is natural. I fear the suffering society will put me through when I’m old and ill, because they can’t cope with death. It’s good we are starting to develop dignified death laws. With the world population as it is, more people will die in the next decade than any other in history (even the plagues). Just looking at population graphs, 1B might die between 2050 and 2060. Much suffering can be avoided.

gsf_emergency 1y ago
Fear of death can be healthy (esp when one is young)! That said, courage is the first virtue, don't pay attention to people who complain about its signalling
sandworm101 1y ago
Being "natural" doesnt mean anything on relation to fear. Being eaten alive by lions is 100% natural too. Death is inevitable. So there is little to gain from being too afraid of it, but i would never suggest that anyone not fear the unknown. That fear is what has kept us alive and evolving. The fear is natural.
- LoganDark 1y ago
  "If the tiger attempts to eat you, remember that you yourself are simply composed of atoms, and it is simply attempting to rearrange some of them for you."
- bombcar 1y ago
  If you offer euthanasia by hungry lions, you'll have takers.
  - sandworm101 1y ago
    Not after i play them that tape of a man being eaten alive by a grizzly.
    - bmacho 1y ago
      They like those videos.
      - TeMPOraL 1y ago
        The lions?
        bmacho 1y ago
        The people wanting to be devoured by lions.
- caseyy 1y ago
  I think death being natural lends a lot of credence to the idea that it’s normal — as normal as life. And I’d say most people probably don’t fear death or non-existence itself, but rather the process of dying (suffering, stress, pain, shame, loss of agency, the grief inflicted on others, etc). In palliative care settings, where the process of dying is well-managed (physically, emotionally, spiritually), people don’t seem to be that afraid. Many make peace. Or at least that’s the image painted by popular science articles on the matter. And speaking for myself, N=1 and all, I really do fear the process only, and not the conclusion. That’s why I think dignified death laws for these settings are important. And why I say I fear what society will put me through when it’s my time, if such laws aren’t passed. I am concerned in general about me living past my health-span. It’s a new concern for many, as medicine traditionally focused on prolonging lifespan. But now people are talking about how full of suffering life is when one doesn’t have whatever minimum of health they deem required to live, but are kept alive anyways. Sometimes agains their wishes. It’s just a macabre prolongation of the process of dying — something that really is scary. Or that’s what I’m afraid of, anyways. But I understand it’s a difficult and somewhat taboo topic in society, so apols if it offends.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > now people are talking about how full of suffering life is when one doesn’t have whatever minimum of health they deem required to live, but are kept alive anyways This is more a social anxiety than reflection of reality. To the extent we’re prolonging suffering, it’s on the order of weeks, maybe months. Not years. Most people fear death. That’s natural. Some of us, due to being stupid, depressed or possibly enlightened, don’t. But these fears evolved for obvious reasons.
    - caseyy 1y ago
      I disagree. There is increasing conversation in the medical community[0] about living past one’s health-span for years. While fear of death is widely considered universal, many people (for various reasons) fear death significantly less than others[1]. Fear of death levels appear to generally stabilize to low past 60 years of age. Many philosophies reject the fear of death, including some of our very popular religions. Only about half of terminally ill patients feel clinically significant death anxiety[2]. It is normal to not fear death without being depressed, enlightened, or stupid. I think it’s not so black and white as evolutionary psychology might suggest. [0] https://peterattiamd.com/outlive/ https://peterattiamd.com/outlive/ [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_anxiety https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_anxiety [2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35609222/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35609222/
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > The fear is natural To be fair, we have evolved stupid eras, e.g. male adolescence, when that fear seems to be purposely tamped down.
bowsamic 1y ago
There is nothing more natural than fear of death itself
kiba 1y ago
People are different. For example, my fear of death is in the from existential dread. It's an occasional thing. We should probably try harder to make people healthier in general. Much of the frailty of the elderly can be avoided with rigorous exercise. Maybe heart disease and dementia doesn't have to be your fate. I don't know how much longer people will be able to live if they optimize the hell out of their biomarkers. But I do know...I don't want to be in pain and frail when I die. The best way to do that is making health my priority.
- dachris 1y ago
  Unfortunately, in the end, bad health is likely to come get you anyways, you just have a higher likelihood of more and more healthy years. A good friend of mine lived healthy, and still went hiking in their 90s. Yet, they had a stroke and are now bedridden. If you just drop dead after having had a nice live or go through months or years of frailty and bad health, it's all in the cards.
  - maccard 1y ago
    There's also the possibility that you can suffer from a long series of health conditions causing you a very reduced quality of life over a long period of time, have a stroke, and become bedridden. Perosnally I'd rather be healthy up until that particular time comes (if it indeed comes for me)
- fsckboy 1y ago
  without disputing that there exists an optimal diet/exercise regiment for longevity and health, i very much doubt that we at present have a clue what it is. every day new science and medical evidence overturns old, and reproducibility fails. optimizing diet and rigorous exercise comes at some cost in the form of time spent in your precious youth. so you sacrifice youthtime for a chance at a longer better old age. each hour of exercise does not make you live an hour longer, so you are net negative from the get-go. (if you love exercise, it's not a loss, but in that case you would do it anyway even if it shortened your life because you love it, no need to spend time extolling its virtues) i optimize for doing what i love to do all the time.
serial_dev 1y ago
I fear for the people I would leave behind, mainly my wife and two little children, if I was gone today, it would seriously impact all their lives. Similarly, I don’t really fear my death, I fear the death of others.
- bombcar 1y ago
  Some of the impact can be lessened (life insurance, for example, is income insurance and can make sure that at least financially they’re ok). But If Tomorrow Never Comes starts playing …
- e40 1y ago
  Agreed. Planning well can lessen this fear.
fkida 1y ago
[dead]
serverlessmania 1y ago
You can’t honestly say you don’t fear death until you face it directly. Tell someone they’ll be executed tomorrow, then ask if they fear death, some people lose their minds when told they’re terminally ill. It’s not as simple as just saying, “I don’t fear death.”
giantg2 1y ago
I would welcome death, but I don't seek it out. Life is generally miserable. It wouldn't be that bad if I got hit by a bus on the way into work.
- 0xbadcafebee 1y ago
  If you wanted you could probably change that state of affairs. Have you just decided you'd rather be miserable?
pc86 1y ago
This sort of utilitarian "unit of suffering" metric has never made much sense to me. 1B people die in a given decade, each perceives or experiences some amount of suffering, so we have say 2B units of suffering, 2 units per person on average. Is anything better or worse if 2B people die instead of 1B with the same aggregate amount of suffering? Average suffering reduced by half! What about 100,000 people instead of 1B? Those people presumably die horrific, painful, suffering deaths but now there a lot more people alive. Is that better or worse?
- aradox66 1y ago
  Indeed this kind of utilitarian suffering quantization leads to some weird, some would say "repugnant" conclusions
- actionfromafar 1y ago
  Reminds me of the Drake equation. Depending on what weights you put in, you can reach any conclusion.
- kubb 1y ago
  Classical Utilitarianism (Bentham, Mill) is about maximizing overall well-being (or happiness), not just minimizing suffering as a number. It's not just math with units, it's about the quality and context of experiences too. There's also average utilitarianism which says: maximize the average happiness per person.
magicalhippo 1y ago
My SO worked at a nursing home which had several elderly with dementia cry out they just wanted to die all day long, day after day. Yet they got their flu shots and got treated for any infections they might get. This went on for the two years my SO worked there. My dad had cancer that spread to his lungs, and then he got pneumonia. The day after being hospitalized, he asked the doctor if it was a chance he'd ever get home and they admitted that no, that was not very likely. Later that day he asked them to turn off the oxygen, which they did after confirming his wish. He passed peacefully a few hours later. I was so glad he was given the opportunity to make his choice, and that the doctors respected it. Sure, I lost some months with my dad, but he'd be in a hospital bed struggling to breathe. I hope I get to make a similar choice when that time comes.
- breckenedge 1y ago
  That’s not necessarily a choice that the nursing home can make. Many families struggle with letting a loved one go. Up to a few years ago, I was meeting with an obviously struggling 101yo weekly, and the family refused hospice despite it being covered by Medicare. The family equated hospice with actively killing someone.
  - magicalhippo 1y ago
    Not blaming the nursing home. Just shared two episodes that significantly influenced my wish to have a choice.
- UncleOxidant 1y ago
  My 85yo dad just spent 3 weeks in a nursing home because he had a digestive issue that weakened him. The stay made his mental and physical health very much worse. He didn't get enough sleep in there (lots of noise all night) and the food was abysmal - he already had problems with sarcopenia and they weren't feeding him nearly enough protein. I'd call him up or visit and he seemed to be having trouble separating his dreams from reality - he was hallucinating which isn't something that was happening before. At the 21 day point they released him (due to medicare limits) and I took him home to his house and stayed with him for 2 weeks making sure he had good food, good sleep and some sun every day. By the end of those 2 weeks he was remarkably better and I was able to leave him on his own. Nursing facilities are necessary for some, but for many they're making their problems much worse.
penguin_booze 1y ago
> I don’t fear death, it is natural. I fear the suffering society will put me through when I’m old and ill, because they can’t cope with death. Assisted death--one with dignity--is rare recent development about which I'm genuinely and wholeheartedly happy. What unsettles me--as rational as I think I'm--is the thought of being born again (duh!). I lead a very comfortable life, but far from "perfect". I can say I'm content. What are the odds that I'll be content in my next life? How likely is it that I'll be born in the right country, to good parents, follow the right religion, and have a brain wired in the right way to make a decent living? I'm not hopeful. So, I've "decided" that I want to be a rock in all my next lives. No emotions, no feelings, no struggle, no pain, no indignation. Just a fricking rock.
dTal 1y ago
I think you do fear death, given that you plan to live until it is physically impossible for you to do so painlessly. If you don't fear death, an easy and reliable way to avoid suffering in your old age is to painlessly commit suicide right now. But be aware that we treat people who don't express a preference for staying alive as having a serious mental illness worth locking them up for. Fear of death is not just natural, it is the most fundamental instinct of any creature besides reproduction. Those who don't have it, don't last long. Perhaps society's attitudes towards it could profitably be improved, but don't make out like it's an irrational personality flaw.
mensetmanusman 1y ago
Overworked nurses and suicide booth technicians on night shift will greatly dampen this utopia where dignified death isn’t usurped by lower-cost-at-all-costs reality. Idealism can cause so much suffering in this way.
susiecambria 1y ago
I agree with your take. Very long story, while my family doesn't talk about feelings, we're pretty good at talking about end of life. Separately, some years ago spent a good amount of time listening to what Atul Gawande thought about medicine and doctors and dying. He wrote Being Mortal: Medicine and What Matters in the End and there's a Frontline documentary (Being Mortal) about his experience and his book: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQhI3Jb7vMg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQhI3Jb7vMg. I've not yet read the book.

by caseyy 1y ago

gsf_emergency 1y ago

Fear of death can be healthy (esp when one is young)! That said, courage is the first virtue, don't pay attention to people who complain about its signalling

sandworm101 1y ago

Being "natural" doesnt mean anything on relation to fear. Being eaten alive by lions is 100% natural too. Death is inevitable. So there is little to gain from being too afraid of it, but i would never suggest that anyone not fear the unknown. That fear is what has kept us alive and evolving. The fear is natural.

LoganDark 1y ago
"If the tiger attempts to eat you, remember that you yourself are simply composed of atoms, and it is simply attempting to rearrange some of them for you."
bombcar 1y ago
If you offer euthanasia by hungry lions, you'll have takers.
- sandworm101 1y ago
  Not after i play them that tape of a man being eaten alive by a grizzly.
  - bmacho 1y ago
    They like those videos.
    - TeMPOraL 1y ago
      The lions?
      - bmacho 1y ago
        The people wanting to be devoured by lions.
caseyy 1y ago
I think death being natural lends a lot of credence to the idea that it’s normal — as normal as life. And I’d say most people probably don’t fear death or non-existence itself, but rather the process of dying (suffering, stress, pain, shame, loss of agency, the grief inflicted on others, etc). In palliative care settings, where the process of dying is well-managed (physically, emotionally, spiritually), people don’t seem to be that afraid. Many make peace. Or at least that’s the image painted by popular science articles on the matter. And speaking for myself, N=1 and all, I really do fear the process only, and not the conclusion. That’s why I think dignified death laws for these settings are important. And why I say I fear what society will put me through when it’s my time, if such laws aren’t passed. I am concerned in general about me living past my health-span. It’s a new concern for many, as medicine traditionally focused on prolonging lifespan. But now people are talking about how full of suffering life is when one doesn’t have whatever minimum of health they deem required to live, but are kept alive anyways. Sometimes agains their wishes. It’s just a macabre prolongation of the process of dying — something that really is scary. Or that’s what I’m afraid of, anyways. But I understand it’s a difficult and somewhat taboo topic in society, so apols if it offends.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > now people are talking about how full of suffering life is when one doesn’t have whatever minimum of health they deem required to live, but are kept alive anyways This is more a social anxiety than reflection of reality. To the extent we’re prolonging suffering, it’s on the order of weeks, maybe months. Not years. Most people fear death. That’s natural. Some of us, due to being stupid, depressed or possibly enlightened, don’t. But these fears evolved for obvious reasons.
  - caseyy 1y ago
    I disagree. There is increasing conversation in the medical community[0] about living past one’s health-span for years. While fear of death is widely considered universal, many people (for various reasons) fear death significantly less than others[1]. Fear of death levels appear to generally stabilize to low past 60 years of age. Many philosophies reject the fear of death, including some of our very popular religions. Only about half of terminally ill patients feel clinically significant death anxiety[2]. It is normal to not fear death without being depressed, enlightened, or stupid. I think it’s not so black and white as evolutionary psychology might suggest. [0] https://peterattiamd.com/outlive/ https://peterattiamd.com/outlive/ [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_anxiety https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_anxiety [2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35609222/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35609222/
JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> The fear is natural To be fair, we have evolved stupid eras, e.g. male adolescence, when that fear seems to be purposely tamped down.

bowsamic 1y ago

There is nothing more natural than fear of death itself

kiba 1y ago

People are different. For example, my fear of death is in the from existential dread. It's an occasional thing. We should probably try harder to make people healthier in general. Much of the frailty of the elderly can be avoided with rigorous exercise. Maybe heart disease and dementia doesn't have to be your fate. I don't know how much longer people will be able to live if they optimize the hell out of their biomarkers. But I do know...I don't want to be in pain and frail when I die. The best way to do that is making health my priority.

dachris 1y ago
Unfortunately, in the end, bad health is likely to come get you anyways, you just have a higher likelihood of more and more healthy years. A good friend of mine lived healthy, and still went hiking in their 90s. Yet, they had a stroke and are now bedridden. If you just drop dead after having had a nice live or go through months or years of frailty and bad health, it's all in the cards.
- maccard 1y ago
  There's also the possibility that you can suffer from a long series of health conditions causing you a very reduced quality of life over a long period of time, have a stroke, and become bedridden. Perosnally I'd rather be healthy up until that particular time comes (if it indeed comes for me)
fsckboy 1y ago
without disputing that there exists an optimal diet/exercise regiment for longevity and health, i very much doubt that we at present have a clue what it is. every day new science and medical evidence overturns old, and reproducibility fails. optimizing diet and rigorous exercise comes at some cost in the form of time spent in your precious youth. so you sacrifice youthtime for a chance at a longer better old age. each hour of exercise does not make you live an hour longer, so you are net negative from the get-go. (if you love exercise, it's not a loss, but in that case you would do it anyway even if it shortened your life because you love it, no need to spend time extolling its virtues) i optimize for doing what i love to do all the time.

serial_dev 1y ago

I fear for the people I would leave behind, mainly my wife and two little children, if I was gone today, it would seriously impact all their lives. Similarly, I don’t really fear my death, I fear the death of others.

bombcar 1y ago
Some of the impact can be lessened (life insurance, for example, is income insurance and can make sure that at least financially they’re ok). But If Tomorrow Never Comes starts playing …
e40 1y ago
Agreed. Planning well can lessen this fear.

fkida 1y ago

[dead]

serverlessmania 1y ago

You can’t honestly say you don’t fear death until you face it directly. Tell someone they’ll be executed tomorrow, then ask if they fear death, some people lose their minds when told they’re terminally ill. It’s not as simple as just saying, “I don’t fear death.”

giantg2 1y ago

I would welcome death, but I don't seek it out. Life is generally miserable. It wouldn't be that bad if I got hit by a bus on the way into work.

0xbadcafebee 1y ago
If you wanted you could probably change that state of affairs. Have you just decided you'd rather be miserable?

pc86 1y ago

This sort of utilitarian "unit of suffering" metric has never made much sense to me. 1B people die in a given decade, each perceives or experiences some amount of suffering, so we have say 2B units of suffering, 2 units per person on average. Is anything better or worse if 2B people die instead of 1B with the same aggregate amount of suffering? Average suffering reduced by half! What about 100,000 people instead of 1B? Those people presumably die horrific, painful, suffering deaths but now there a lot more people alive. Is that better or worse?

aradox66 1y ago
Indeed this kind of utilitarian suffering quantization leads to some weird, some would say "repugnant" conclusions
actionfromafar 1y ago
Reminds me of the Drake equation. Depending on what weights you put in, you can reach any conclusion.
kubb 1y ago
Classical Utilitarianism (Bentham, Mill) is about maximizing overall well-being (or happiness), not just minimizing suffering as a number. It's not just math with units, it's about the quality and context of experiences too. There's also average utilitarianism which says: maximize the average happiness per person.

magicalhippo 1y ago

My SO worked at a nursing home which had several elderly with dementia cry out they just wanted to die all day long, day after day. Yet they got their flu shots and got treated for any infections they might get. This went on for the two years my SO worked there. My dad had cancer that spread to his lungs, and then he got pneumonia. The day after being hospitalized, he asked the doctor if it was a chance he'd ever get home and they admitted that no, that was not very likely. Later that day he asked them to turn off the oxygen, which they did after confirming his wish. He passed peacefully a few hours later. I was so glad he was given the opportunity to make his choice, and that the doctors respected it. Sure, I lost some months with my dad, but he'd be in a hospital bed struggling to breathe. I hope I get to make a similar choice when that time comes.

breckenedge 1y ago
That’s not necessarily a choice that the nursing home can make. Many families struggle with letting a loved one go. Up to a few years ago, I was meeting with an obviously struggling 101yo weekly, and the family refused hospice despite it being covered by Medicare. The family equated hospice with actively killing someone.
- magicalhippo 1y ago
  Not blaming the nursing home. Just shared two episodes that significantly influenced my wish to have a choice.
UncleOxidant 1y ago
My 85yo dad just spent 3 weeks in a nursing home because he had a digestive issue that weakened him. The stay made his mental and physical health very much worse. He didn't get enough sleep in there (lots of noise all night) and the food was abysmal - he already had problems with sarcopenia and they weren't feeding him nearly enough protein. I'd call him up or visit and he seemed to be having trouble separating his dreams from reality - he was hallucinating which isn't something that was happening before. At the 21 day point they released him (due to medicare limits) and I took him home to his house and stayed with him for 2 weeks making sure he had good food, good sleep and some sun every day. By the end of those 2 weeks he was remarkably better and I was able to leave him on his own. Nursing facilities are necessary for some, but for many they're making their problems much worse.

penguin_booze 1y ago

> I don’t fear death, it is natural. I fear the suffering society will put me through when I’m old and ill, because they can’t cope with death. Assisted death--one with dignity--is rare recent development about which I'm genuinely and wholeheartedly happy. What unsettles me--as rational as I think I'm--is the thought of being born again (duh!). I lead a very comfortable life, but far from "perfect". I can say I'm content. What are the odds that I'll be content in my next life? How likely is it that I'll be born in the right country, to good parents, follow the right religion, and have a brain wired in the right way to make a decent living? I'm not hopeful. So, I've "decided" that I want to be a rock in all my next lives. No emotions, no feelings, no struggle, no pain, no indignation. Just a fricking rock.

dTal 1y ago

I think you do fear death, given that you plan to live until it is physically impossible for you to do so painlessly. If you don't fear death, an easy and reliable way to avoid suffering in your old age is to painlessly commit suicide right now. But be aware that we treat people who don't express a preference for staying alive as having a serious mental illness worth locking them up for. Fear of death is not just natural, it is the most fundamental instinct of any creature besides reproduction. Those who don't have it, don't last long. Perhaps society's attitudes towards it could profitably be improved, but don't make out like it's an irrational personality flaw.

mensetmanusman 1y ago

Overworked nurses and suicide booth technicians on night shift will greatly dampen this utopia where dignified death isn’t usurped by lower-cost-at-all-costs reality. Idealism can cause so much suffering in this way.

susiecambria 1y ago

I agree with your take. Very long story, while my family doesn't talk about feelings, we're pretty good at talking about end of life. Separately, some years ago spent a good amount of time listening to what Atul Gawande thought about medicine and doctors and dying. He wrote Being Mortal: Medicine and What Matters in the End and there's a Frontline documentary (Being Mortal) about his experience and his book: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQhI3Jb7vMg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQhI3Jb7vMg. I've not yet read the book.