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Could this material be a cost-effective replacement for stainless steel? I'm thinking of applications where the antimicrobial properties of copper would be ben

Could this material be a cost-effective replacement for stainless steel? I'm thinking of applications where the antimicrobial properties of copper would be beneficial.

coder543 1y ago
Nope... this stuff is 96.5% copper, and copper is ~3x as expensive as stainless steel. Even if tantalum and lithium were free, it would be substantially more expensive. Tantalum is not free, though. It's a very expensive material at about 100x the cost per kg relative to stainless steel, so it nearly doubles the cost of the raw material inputs by itself with its 3% contribution. The process of making this alloy is also likely to be expensive. I'm also not sure how much being in an alloy would impact the antimicrobial effects of copper.
- kragen 1y ago
  You're right about the cost angle, though it might be cheaper than stellite, inconel, monel, that kind of thing. Generally copper does retain its antibacterial properties in alloys where it's a high proportion of the alloy, like this one.
- thehappypm 1y ago
  Well, this could dramatically increase the demand for tantalum, which (econ 101) could dramatically increase the supply over time? Is tantalum in much demand today?
  - coder543 1y ago
    Huge demand for copper hasn’t brought its price down to the price of stainless steel, has it? Most definitely not, so it seems like Econ 101 was incomplete. Not all goods are perfectly elastic. Inelastic goods do not get cheaper with more demand. Tantalum is in demand today, yes. Tantalum capacitors are a well known application, but it is used in all sorts of things. My point was that even if tantalum were free, a material that is 96.5% copper is still not going to be significantly cheaper than copper, which I think is a pretty self-evident outcome.
    - thehappypm 1y ago
      Copper has been in high demand for centuries. Lithium might be a more similar situation to tantalum, huge spikes in demand in the last decade have absolutely floored prices
fc417fc802 1y ago
I'm struggling to think of applications where both strength and antimicrobial properties matter. Isn't it usually one or the other?
- wpollock 1y ago
  I was actually thinking of sinks, shower heads, door knobs, stuff like that.
- kragen 1y ago
  Hot water heater tanks, dishes, silverware, handrails, air conditioner heat exchangers? But in a lot of cases you can just electroplate a strong alloy with copper, brass, or silver.
  - thfuran 1y ago
    None of those need high strength.
    - Auracle 1y ago
      So says someone that's never used chintzy silverware.
      - doubled112 1y ago
        Have you even lived until you've folded a spoon trying to scoop ice cream with it? Woah, I guess I don't know my own strength!
        fc417fc802 1y ago
        Chunky stainless steel flatware is the best. Being able to get the same thing in copper without significant loss of strength would be awesome.
        amluto 1y ago
londons_explore 1y ago
This material won't ever be cheap - all 3 ingredients cost a lot more than stainless steel.
deleted 1y ago
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adrian_b 1y ago
It is unlikely that it has better corrosion properties than a cheaper copper alloy, like copper-nickel alloy. This new alloy is useful only for high-temperature applications, like turbines and heat exchangers, where its main advantage over the existing alloys (based on nickel or cobalt) is its much higher thermal conductivity. Moreover, the kinds of stainless steel that have little or no nickel content (e.g. ferritic, martensitic, superferritic, duplex, manganese-austenitic) will always have a price several times lower than any copper alloy. This copper alloy will be rather expensive due to the high cost of tantalum. However the content in tantalum is small, so the price will remain acceptable for its applications.
Qwertious 1y ago
>Could this material be a cost-effective replacement for stainless steel? Iron ore costs $~100/ton, The cost of copper ore is hard to find (possibly because there are so many types, and because it tends to be processed locally AFAICT) but you're looking at ~$5000/ton. So the raw-material cost should be about 50x, and apparently stainless steel costs ~$2500/ton so even if the processing is free you're already 2x the price. So, no. Copper is about as rare as lithium, for context. Iron is an amazingly cheap metal.
- thehappypm 1y ago
  Copper is technically a precious metal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precious_metal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precious_metal

Could this material be a cost-effective replacement for stainless steel? I'm thinking of applications where the antimicrobial properties of copper would be beneficial.

coder543 1y ago

Nope... this stuff is 96.5% copper, and copper is ~3x as expensive as stainless steel. Even if tantalum and lithium were free, it would be substantially more expensive. Tantalum is not free, though. It's a very expensive material at about 100x the cost per kg relative to stainless steel, so it nearly doubles the cost of the raw material inputs by itself with its 3% contribution. The process of making this alloy is also likely to be expensive. I'm also not sure how much being in an alloy would impact the antimicrobial effects of copper.

kragen 1y ago
You're right about the cost angle, though it might be cheaper than stellite, inconel, monel, that kind of thing. Generally copper does retain its antibacterial properties in alloys where it's a high proportion of the alloy, like this one.
thehappypm 1y ago
Well, this could dramatically increase the demand for tantalum, which (econ 101) could dramatically increase the supply over time? Is tantalum in much demand today?
- coder543 1y ago
  Huge demand for copper hasn’t brought its price down to the price of stainless steel, has it? Most definitely not, so it seems like Econ 101 was incomplete. Not all goods are perfectly elastic. Inelastic goods do not get cheaper with more demand. Tantalum is in demand today, yes. Tantalum capacitors are a well known application, but it is used in all sorts of things. My point was that even if tantalum were free, a material that is 96.5% copper is still not going to be significantly cheaper than copper, which I think is a pretty self-evident outcome.
  - thehappypm 1y ago
    Copper has been in high demand for centuries. Lithium might be a more similar situation to tantalum, huge spikes in demand in the last decade have absolutely floored prices

fc417fc802 1y ago

I'm struggling to think of applications where both strength and antimicrobial properties matter. Isn't it usually one or the other?

wpollock 1y ago
I was actually thinking of sinks, shower heads, door knobs, stuff like that.
kragen 1y ago
Hot water heater tanks, dishes, silverware, handrails, air conditioner heat exchangers? But in a lot of cases you can just electroplate a strong alloy with copper, brass, or silver.
- thfuran 1y ago
  None of those need high strength.
  - Auracle 1y ago
    So says someone that's never used chintzy silverware.
    - doubled112 1y ago
      Have you even lived until you've folded a spoon trying to scoop ice cream with it? Woah, I guess I don't know my own strength!
      - fc417fc802 1y ago
        Chunky stainless steel flatware is the best. Being able to get the same thing in copper without significant loss of strength would be awesome.
        amluto 1y ago

londons_explore 1y ago

This material won't ever be cheap - all 3 ingredients cost a lot more than stainless steel.

deleted 1y ago

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adrian_b 1y ago

It is unlikely that it has better corrosion properties than a cheaper copper alloy, like copper-nickel alloy. This new alloy is useful only for high-temperature applications, like turbines and heat exchangers, where its main advantage over the existing alloys (based on nickel or cobalt) is its much higher thermal conductivity. Moreover, the kinds of stainless steel that have little or no nickel content (e.g. ferritic, martensitic, superferritic, duplex, manganese-austenitic) will always have a price several times lower than any copper alloy. This copper alloy will be rather expensive due to the high cost of tantalum. However the content in tantalum is small, so the price will remain acceptable for its applications.

Qwertious 1y ago

>Could this material be a cost-effective replacement for stainless steel? Iron ore costs $~100/ton, The cost of copper ore is hard to find (possibly because there are so many types, and because it tends to be processed locally AFAICT) but you're looking at ~$5000/ton. So the raw-material cost should be about 50x, and apparently stainless steel costs ~$2500/ton so even if the processing is free you're already 2x the price. So, no. Copper is about as rare as lithium, for context. Iron is an amazingly cheap metal.

thehappypm 1y ago
Copper is technically a precious metal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precious_metal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precious_metal