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I've been helping young men escape the clutches of porn for over a decade now (leading what you might call recovery groups). Never once have I found a single st

I've been helping young men escape the clutches of porn for over a decade now (leading what you might call recovery groups). Never once have I found a single story that ended well (but that's more or less expected given the groups I run). It all starts with an introduction to porn and ends with an addiction that seems to slowly transforms their brains in unpleasant ways, objectification of women being the primary one. One of the best tools that I continue to employ is deprogramming that objectification. Helping them to see the humanity and personhood of women again. It's incredible how most porn can turn from enticing to absolutely repulsive once you adopt this mindset.

enceladus06 1y ago
Why is porn such a big deal? I've seen it, but the real thing is much better. How is it even possible to get addicted that just seems weird.
- toomuchtodo 1y ago
  Everyone’s brain is built different. Some have more executive function and control then others. Alcoholics, drug or food addiction, gambling, etc. Reward centers are tricky.
- deleted 1y ago
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- Magma7404 1y ago
  > the real thing is much better (I'm not judging you but) It's easy for you to say when you have the real thing. And that's why our societies have failed for a lot of people, and why we now must handle porn the same way we are handling drug problems. For the GP: "escape the clutches of porn" when it's the only alternative to suicide due to lack of social contact? You end up with incels who would do anything to have a way to be a part of society, and most of the time it's in a bad way. Been there done that, our society has changed in the wrong way and I don't think we're blaming the right guys. "Helping them to see the humanity and personhood of women again" is misled. The issue is that some people have no human contact with men or women at all. No male parental figure which is more important and impacting than the contact with the other sex, even in a social context. Focusing on porn and women is useless in that context (since I suspect OP is talking about, well, porn and incels and the whole bro thing).
- sepositus 1y ago
  I've had boys as young as 10 in my groups. How many ten-year-olds are experiencing the real thing? It's very easy to get a pre-adolescent brain hooked on this stuff. However, as someone else pointed out, every brain is unique, and not everyone experiences the same issues.
- docdeek 1y ago
  > How is it even possible to get addicted that just seems weird. This is a pretty common reaction to someone else's addiction. I've heard people say the same about alcohol and other less-socially acceptable drugs. I'm not a porn addict but I suspect that for people who are the response would be something like asking an alcoholic why they want another drink when they've already had so many: how is it possible to not want another drink?
  - Magma7404 1y ago
    I've been a incel for a short while and know everything about alcohol. Both issues are identical: why would I give up beer when there is no alternative? Same thing for porn.
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nerdjon 1y ago
> Never once have I found a single story that ended well. That seems like a very strong blanket statement. Are you specifically referring to a porn addiction or just consuming porn at all? If the later... not everyone has negative stories about porn.
- netsharc 1y ago
  He leads porn recovery groups. It'd be like working in a drug rehab clinic, of course the people he'll meet will be wrecks.
dingnuts 1y ago
You do understand that your anecdote is an example of confirmation bias, right? You claim is tantamount to saying you ran an AA group and only heard bad things about alcohol. No shit!? Next you'll start a sports gambling recovery group and let us know there's nothing good about sports. Porn might not be good but your anecdote is a long way from evidence. What you've seen is a tautology; the people who DON'T have a problem aren't showing up in your program.
- mcphage 1y ago
  > Next you'll start a sports gambling recovery group and let us know there's nothing good about sports. I am open to arguments that there’s nothing good about sports gambling, however.
- sepositus 1y ago
  > You claim I think this is your problem. I didn't make a claim. I provided a personal story about running these groups and how objectification of women was a common result of a porn addiction (something the individual being interviewed mentioned). I was simply providing some anecdotal evidence that agreed with the interviewee. I wouldn't make an absolute statement about my experiences for the same reasons you're using to criticizing my comment.
  - dingnuts 1y ago
    > Never once have I found a single story that ended well. That's the claim you made. Every story ends badly because you've never seen one end well at your recovery program. You've never seen a story end well because by the time you're involved everything has already gone wrong. You're like a fire fighter claiming homes are dangerous because you always see them on fire. The people who don't have a problem aren't coming to your program.
    - sepositus 1y ago
      > The people who don't have a problem aren't coming to your program. Exactly, I think we're just talking past each other. My comment very much implies this; I didn't feel the need to state it explicitly.
wetpaws 1y ago
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RHSeeger 1y ago
> Never once have I found a single story that ended well. It seems like this is a result of selection bias. If you're already seeing a group of people that have decided that porn is a problem for them, then the porn is going to be a problem for the people you're seeing.
- sepositus 1y ago
  Yes, I've updated the original comment since so many people are getting tripped up over this. As I've said in another thread, this can pretty easily be implied by my comment, so it wasn't stated out loud. But I've added an aside to make it more clear.
  - pseudalopex 1y ago
    Your original words did not imply you were aware of the selection bias. Don't blame others for your mistakes.
    - sepositus 1y ago
      I had no intentions for people to take my view as objective reality, and no where in my comment did I assert my take was purely objective. I think people are just used to others putting their thoughts out as facts and make the wrong assumption. But that's not my fault :)
zulban 1y ago
Selection bias. My mom was a head trauma nurse and told me never to snowboard, skate, drive a motorcycle, rockclimb etc. She now sits on her safe couch all day, retired, watching the news and growing more bitter daily instead of living her life.
deleted 1y ago
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hiatus 1y ago
> ends with an addiction that seems to slowly transforms their brains in unpleasant ways, objectification of women being the primary one. Can you speak to other transformations you've observed?
- sepositus 1y ago
  Sure, another common one would be a warped view of sex. A lot of these young men get into relationships and often want to do some "things" that the other party is usually not comfortable with. The problem is they become less capable of "getting off" with the less risqué acts and it's usually then that they realize how porn has altered their perspective on reality.

enceladus06 1y ago

Why is porn such a big deal? I've seen it, but the real thing is much better. How is it even possible to get addicted that just seems weird.

toomuchtodo 1y ago
Everyone’s brain is built different. Some have more executive function and control then others. Alcoholics, drug or food addiction, gambling, etc. Reward centers are tricky.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
Magma7404 1y ago
> the real thing is much better (I'm not judging you but) It's easy for you to say when you have the real thing. And that's why our societies have failed for a lot of people, and why we now must handle porn the same way we are handling drug problems. For the GP: "escape the clutches of porn" when it's the only alternative to suicide due to lack of social contact? You end up with incels who would do anything to have a way to be a part of society, and most of the time it's in a bad way. Been there done that, our society has changed in the wrong way and I don't think we're blaming the right guys. "Helping them to see the humanity and personhood of women again" is misled. The issue is that some people have no human contact with men or women at all. No male parental figure which is more important and impacting than the contact with the other sex, even in a social context. Focusing on porn and women is useless in that context (since I suspect OP is talking about, well, porn and incels and the whole bro thing).
sepositus 1y ago
I've had boys as young as 10 in my groups. How many ten-year-olds are experiencing the real thing? It's very easy to get a pre-adolescent brain hooked on this stuff. However, as someone else pointed out, every brain is unique, and not everyone experiences the same issues.
docdeek 1y ago
> How is it even possible to get addicted that just seems weird. This is a pretty common reaction to someone else's addiction. I've heard people say the same about alcohol and other less-socially acceptable drugs. I'm not a porn addict but I suspect that for people who are the response would be something like asking an alcoholic why they want another drink when they've already had so many: how is it possible to not want another drink?
- Magma7404 1y ago
  I've been a incel for a short while and know everything about alcohol. Both issues are identical: why would I give up beer when there is no alternative? Same thing for porn.
deleted 1y ago
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nerdjon 1y ago

> Never once have I found a single story that ended well. That seems like a very strong blanket statement. Are you specifically referring to a porn addiction or just consuming porn at all? If the later... not everyone has negative stories about porn.

netsharc 1y ago
He leads porn recovery groups. It'd be like working in a drug rehab clinic, of course the people he'll meet will be wrecks.

dingnuts 1y ago

You do understand that your anecdote is an example of confirmation bias, right? You claim is tantamount to saying you ran an AA group and only heard bad things about alcohol. No shit!? Next you'll start a sports gambling recovery group and let us know there's nothing good about sports. Porn might not be good but your anecdote is a long way from evidence. What you've seen is a tautology; the people who DON'T have a problem aren't showing up in your program.

mcphage 1y ago
> Next you'll start a sports gambling recovery group and let us know there's nothing good about sports. I am open to arguments that there’s nothing good about sports gambling, however.
sepositus 1y ago
> You claim I think this is your problem. I didn't make a claim. I provided a personal story about running these groups and how objectification of women was a common result of a porn addiction (something the individual being interviewed mentioned). I was simply providing some anecdotal evidence that agreed with the interviewee. I wouldn't make an absolute statement about my experiences for the same reasons you're using to criticizing my comment.
- dingnuts 1y ago
  > Never once have I found a single story that ended well. That's the claim you made. Every story ends badly because you've never seen one end well at your recovery program. You've never seen a story end well because by the time you're involved everything has already gone wrong. You're like a fire fighter claiming homes are dangerous because you always see them on fire. The people who don't have a problem aren't coming to your program.
  - sepositus 1y ago
    > The people who don't have a problem aren't coming to your program. Exactly, I think we're just talking past each other. My comment very much implies this; I didn't feel the need to state it explicitly.

wetpaws 1y ago

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RHSeeger 1y ago

> Never once have I found a single story that ended well. It seems like this is a result of selection bias. If you're already seeing a group of people that have decided that porn is a problem for them, then the porn is going to be a problem for the people you're seeing.

sepositus 1y ago
Yes, I've updated the original comment since so many people are getting tripped up over this. As I've said in another thread, this can pretty easily be implied by my comment, so it wasn't stated out loud. But I've added an aside to make it more clear.
- pseudalopex 1y ago
  Your original words did not imply you were aware of the selection bias. Don't blame others for your mistakes.
  - sepositus 1y ago
    I had no intentions for people to take my view as objective reality, and no where in my comment did I assert my take was purely objective. I think people are just used to others putting their thoughts out as facts and make the wrong assumption. But that's not my fault :)

zulban 1y ago

Selection bias. My mom was a head trauma nurse and told me never to snowboard, skate, drive a motorcycle, rockclimb etc. She now sits on her safe couch all day, retired, watching the news and growing more bitter daily instead of living her life.

deleted 1y ago

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deleted 1y ago

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hiatus 1y ago

> ends with an addiction that seems to slowly transforms their brains in unpleasant ways, objectification of women being the primary one. Can you speak to other transformations you've observed?

sepositus 1y ago
Sure, another common one would be a warped view of sex. A lot of these young men get into relationships and often want to do some "things" that the other party is usually not comfortable with. The problem is they become less capable of "getting off" with the less risqué acts and it's usually then that they realize how porn has altered their perspective on reality.