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It’s missing in most European places because there’s little need for it. When there is a need, Europe does pretty well. At least relative to the U.S. For exam

It’s missing in most European places because there’s little need for it. When there is a need, Europe does pretty well. At least relative to the U.S. For example, Europe built the completely novel floodgates for Venice. It’s been very successful as far as I’m aware when it was heavily doubted before and throughout its development. On the other hand, the U.S. won’t even contemplate building something similar to protect NYC, despite the fact that Europe has already done it and proven the concept, and that the region this would protect is orders of magnitude more economically valuable than Venice. Similarly consider high speed rail. Italy completely revolutionized domestic travel by setting up excellent high speed rail over a few years. They did it not by government fiat but intelligent regulations paired with privatization and market rules. While it’s not China scale, it’s more than sufficient for Italy’s scale. At the same time the U.S. is completely incapable of creating high speed rail and to the extent it has its done so by redefining it down.

angled 2y ago
To me, it’s better to compare China with India. Similar populations, yet the effects of different systems of government are extremely obvious.
- graemep 2y ago
  Both have large populations, but have entirely different histories and cultures and economies. Thailand, the UK, and Tanzania have similar populations, that does not mean they are useful comparisons. What about Sri Lanka and Australia, or Syria and Taiwan?
  - HDThoreaun 1y ago
    The dialectic is only valuable when comparing things that arent the same. the difference in their economy is the point, the difference in their history is how they got here.
- 124123 1y ago
  They are only similar in size. Do you mean that size is the only factor when doing operating a government ?
- sadeshmukh 1y ago
  Because the only difference between them is their government, not history, not internal differences, or anything else?
phillipcarter 1y ago
Partly why this is an apples-oranges comparison is that Italy's federal government stepped in to make it happen (planning, land acquisition, funding, establishing federally-owned corporate structure). In the US, projects like this are governed just as much by states as they are the federal government, and since the 1970s we've had a strong and entrenched culture of not having the federal government step in to exert its will on a system to produce a public good. There's a reason why Obamacare was so fraught and ultimately led to a political downfall of the democrats: it spit in the face of private and state interests (from their perspective) to undercut what they'd grown to do in the previous 40 years. This good, but ultimately half-hearted measure, is only a fraction of the kind of political willpower needed to transform the federal state into something that can build infrastructure again.
- kjkjadksj 1y ago
  They do spend on these things. The army corp of engineers is planning a 53 billion dollar project for nyc harbor and sea protection to be built in 2030 or so.
blacksmith_tb 1y ago
US infrastructure is increasingly terrible, true. But high-speed rail isn't probably what I'd point to as the most glaring problem. No doubt the TGV and Shinkansen are impressive, but the longest route in Japan (Tokyo-Aomori) is 675km compared to 4000km from Los Angeles to NYC (assuming you could it make a straight line, which you couldn't). Not to say I wouldn't be delighted to even have service from San Diego to Seattle, a mere 1800km.
- DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
  Everything east of the Mississippi could be connected by high-speed rail. Chicago to NYC is about the same distance as Beijing to Shanghai (1200 km), and that only takes 4.5 hours in China. The fact that HSR doesn't make sense between LA and NYC is no excuse for not building it in the large parts of the country where it makes sense.
  - 124123 1y ago
    yeah exactly, the first benefit of trains is to substitute for short but frequent flights between major cities.
    - analog31 1y ago
      I think of this, every time it takes me more than 4 hours to "fly" 150 miles to the Chicago airport, when you count all of the overhead at the two ends, plus average delays and cancellations. Actually, I take the intercity bus.
- jakeinspace 1y ago
  You can just switch trains in Tokyo and continue on to Fukuoka on the Nozomi Shinkansen. That's another 1000km. 8 hours travel time, with a 10 minute layover is quite nice, I've taken most of that ride (Aomori to Hiroshima). That would be like what, Miami to NY? Or Houston to Chicago.
- 124123 1y ago
  but why would you build such a long route ? just build train along the coast lines should have plenty benefit.
criddell 1y ago
> Europe built the completely novel floodgates for Venice That's wild! How do you convince people in Latvia or Norway that they should help pay for infrastructure like that in Italy? If Manhattan wants flood gates, NY will have to build them. At some point, they will probably have to because the cost of insurance will exceed the cost of the bonds needed to build.
- blackguardx 1y ago
  There are typically federal grants for major infrastructure projects. The Hoover Dam, for example, was entirely paid for by federal dollars. Many bridges also have federal backing and the interstate highway system is subsidized. This is because good infrastructure helps increase the GDP and benefits everyone in the country.
- eynsham 1y ago
  The European Investment Bank provided €1.5b of funding.¹ EIB decisions don’t generally attract lots of attention from member states other than those concerned, since it is generally understood that the EIB is funding lots of projects in member states simultaneously. Similarly, the budget of the Commission and similar bodies will generally be set in advance, usually with a formal or informal understanding as to the broad distribution of funds between member states that will follow. In any case, this project seems to me to be no more extraordinary than the redistributive effects of e.g. Medicaid or Pentagon spending, or the construction of Interstates. The Interstates, in the present US political environment, might indeed seem extraordinary; but the question is then not how one convinces people from state A to spend on state B, but how to convince people to make large long-term investments in the first place. 1: https://web.archive.org/web/20130111042126/http://archiviostorico.corriere.it/2009/aprile/15/Mose_sblocca_fondi_per_Venezia_co_8_090415035.shtml https://web.archive.org/web/20130111042126/http://archiviost...
- rsynnott 1y ago
  Wait, doesn't the US Army Corps of Engineers do some of that sort of thing?
cyanydeez 1y ago
Keep in mind China has construction more than just from population capacity; it's also a shell game for local districts to get taxes and for "investment" by locals who are told it'll always go up, just like the American market. And then at the top level, China views it as a "make work" project to keep industry going.
- em-bee 1y ago
  well, doesn't trump want to get the US industry going? i see an opportunity there. invest billions into infrastructure and demand local development of technology used for it.
cyberpunk2066 1y ago
> won’t even contemplate building something similar to protect NYC Perhaps not as ambitious as a barrier spanning the entrance to NY Harbor (comparable to Venice's system), NYC did build extensive storm surge barriers along the East River: https://www.nyc.gov/site/escr/about/resiliency-and-flood-protection.page https://www.nyc.gov/site/escr/about/resiliency-and-flood-pro... https://www.nyc.gov/site/ddc/about/press-releases/2021/pr-100621-floodwall.page https://www.nyc.gov/site/ddc/about/press-releases/2021/pr-10...

angled 2y ago

To me, it’s better to compare China with India. Similar populations, yet the effects of different systems of government are extremely obvious.

graemep 2y ago
Both have large populations, but have entirely different histories and cultures and economies. Thailand, the UK, and Tanzania have similar populations, that does not mean they are useful comparisons. What about Sri Lanka and Australia, or Syria and Taiwan?
- HDThoreaun 1y ago
  The dialectic is only valuable when comparing things that arent the same. the difference in their economy is the point, the difference in their history is how they got here.
124123 1y ago
They are only similar in size. Do you mean that size is the only factor when doing operating a government ?
sadeshmukh 1y ago
Because the only difference between them is their government, not history, not internal differences, or anything else?

phillipcarter 1y ago

Partly why this is an apples-oranges comparison is that Italy's federal government stepped in to make it happen (planning, land acquisition, funding, establishing federally-owned corporate structure). In the US, projects like this are governed just as much by states as they are the federal government, and since the 1970s we've had a strong and entrenched culture of not having the federal government step in to exert its will on a system to produce a public good. There's a reason why Obamacare was so fraught and ultimately led to a political downfall of the democrats: it spit in the face of private and state interests (from their perspective) to undercut what they'd grown to do in the previous 40 years. This good, but ultimately half-hearted measure, is only a fraction of the kind of political willpower needed to transform the federal state into something that can build infrastructure again.

kjkjadksj 1y ago
They do spend on these things. The army corp of engineers is planning a 53 billion dollar project for nyc harbor and sea protection to be built in 2030 or so.

blacksmith_tb 1y ago

US infrastructure is increasingly terrible, true. But high-speed rail isn't probably what I'd point to as the most glaring problem. No doubt the TGV and Shinkansen are impressive, but the longest route in Japan (Tokyo-Aomori) is 675km compared to 4000km from Los Angeles to NYC (assuming you could it make a straight line, which you couldn't). Not to say I wouldn't be delighted to even have service from San Diego to Seattle, a mere 1800km.

DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
Everything east of the Mississippi could be connected by high-speed rail. Chicago to NYC is about the same distance as Beijing to Shanghai (1200 km), and that only takes 4.5 hours in China. The fact that HSR doesn't make sense between LA and NYC is no excuse for not building it in the large parts of the country where it makes sense.
- 124123 1y ago
  yeah exactly, the first benefit of trains is to substitute for short but frequent flights between major cities.
  - analog31 1y ago
    I think of this, every time it takes me more than 4 hours to "fly" 150 miles to the Chicago airport, when you count all of the overhead at the two ends, plus average delays and cancellations. Actually, I take the intercity bus.
jakeinspace 1y ago
You can just switch trains in Tokyo and continue on to Fukuoka on the Nozomi Shinkansen. That's another 1000km. 8 hours travel time, with a 10 minute layover is quite nice, I've taken most of that ride (Aomori to Hiroshima). That would be like what, Miami to NY? Or Houston to Chicago.
124123 1y ago
but why would you build such a long route ? just build train along the coast lines should have plenty benefit.

criddell 1y ago

> Europe built the completely novel floodgates for Venice That's wild! How do you convince people in Latvia or Norway that they should help pay for infrastructure like that in Italy? If Manhattan wants flood gates, NY will have to build them. At some point, they will probably have to because the cost of insurance will exceed the cost of the bonds needed to build.

blackguardx 1y ago
There are typically federal grants for major infrastructure projects. The Hoover Dam, for example, was entirely paid for by federal dollars. Many bridges also have federal backing and the interstate highway system is subsidized. This is because good infrastructure helps increase the GDP and benefits everyone in the country.
eynsham 1y ago
The European Investment Bank provided €1.5b of funding.¹ EIB decisions don’t generally attract lots of attention from member states other than those concerned, since it is generally understood that the EIB is funding lots of projects in member states simultaneously. Similarly, the budget of the Commission and similar bodies will generally be set in advance, usually with a formal or informal understanding as to the broad distribution of funds between member states that will follow. In any case, this project seems to me to be no more extraordinary than the redistributive effects of e.g. Medicaid or Pentagon spending, or the construction of Interstates. The Interstates, in the present US political environment, might indeed seem extraordinary; but the question is then not how one convinces people from state A to spend on state B, but how to convince people to make large long-term investments in the first place. 1: https://web.archive.org/web/20130111042126/http://archiviostorico.corriere.it/2009/aprile/15/Mose_sblocca_fondi_per_Venezia_co_8_090415035.shtml https://web.archive.org/web/20130111042126/http://archiviost...
rsynnott 1y ago
Wait, doesn't the US Army Corps of Engineers do some of that sort of thing?

cyanydeez 1y ago

Keep in mind China has construction more than just from population capacity; it's also a shell game for local districts to get taxes and for "investment" by locals who are told it'll always go up, just like the American market. And then at the top level, China views it as a "make work" project to keep industry going.

em-bee 1y ago
well, doesn't trump want to get the US industry going? i see an opportunity there. invest billions into infrastructure and demand local development of technology used for it.

cyberpunk2066 1y ago

> won’t even contemplate building something similar to protect NYC Perhaps not as ambitious as a barrier spanning the entrance to NY Harbor (comparable to Venice's system), NYC did build extensive storm surge barriers along the East River: https://www.nyc.gov/site/escr/about/resiliency-and-flood-protection.page https://www.nyc.gov/site/escr/about/resiliency-and-flood-pro... https://www.nyc.gov/site/ddc/about/press-releases/2021/pr-100621-floodwall.page https://www.nyc.gov/site/ddc/about/press-releases/2021/pr-10...