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With all due respect to Dave, no. Please stop rewriting history without the relevant details. CSS Zen Garden is a project that demonstrated that "progressive e
by unconed 1y ago
With all due respect to Dave, no. Please stop rewriting history without the relevant details.
CSS Zen Garden is a project that demonstrated that "progressive enhancement" and "semantic HTML" were nonsense. The only reason something like CSS Zen Garden worked at all is because all the markup is fixed, all the content is static, and the designs are not really responsive.
There is no CMS with a theming system that offers the flexibility that CSS Zen Garden claims one can have with a single .css, independent of the HTML. And this is because web developers were huffing the HTML/CSS gospel too much, fussing over not having extra divs in their source and what not, and celebrating "semantic HTML" without ever running their website through a screen reader.
The reason people stopped using table layout when they were doing CSS is because CSS1 did not support the _most common way of doing layout at the time_, and IE6 held the web hostage for a decade. This is a remarkable thing because it means everyone hopped on this bandwagon despite it being very obviously ill-informed and not ready for production. The CSS Zen Garden era designs can be expected to be full of float/clear tricks, requiring careful layout dependency between elements so everything gets pushed down just far enough. And it looks exactly like the table-based layouts they were replacing, except they will scale improperly or not at all.
The "status quo" attitude has also not vanished, as witnessed by CSS variables, custom properties and all the other epicycles that keep getting added on to CSS instead of actually just scrapping the parts that are dumb. None of these CSS experts have the vision or depth of experience to really know what it takes to implement what they spec, or what is even still relevant today and what isn't.
I actually implemented my own web layout system for Use.GPU from scratch, with flexbox and blackjack and hookers, and it's remarkable how much of HTML/CSS you don't need, and also, how many parts of it are still laughably inadequate (like text-ellipsis).
Dave did not win the argument. The people who celebrated CSS Zen Garden were cargo culters who confused a pretty design for a structurally sound layout, and who honestly just wanted something they could feel good about while dealing with pre-Firebug / pre-Dev Tools CSS development.
There is a really easy way to test this too, and I would challenge Dave to do it: translate all the content to another language. See how many of those beautiful CSS-only designs fall apart.
- JimDabell 1y agoThis sounds less like you want to correct something I have said that was inaccurate and more like you have a fundamental disagreement with the design of CSS.
- unconed 1y agoWhere in your comment did you mention the IE angle? The effect of lack of dev tools? Where did you mention the boondoggle of CSS2 tables and how everyone had to learn a whole new way of making floats behave? Where did you mention the laundry lists of named hacks that people used to get around browser parser differentials? You didn't. You wrote the story as it is being told instead of how it happened. You just don't know what you're talking about.
- JimDabell 1y agoI didn’t mention any of that because none of it is relevant to the point I was making about design. > You wrote the story as it is being told instead of how it happened. I did the opposite of that. I was very clearly and specifically recounting an aspect of the situation that is not being told today. When was the last time you heard somebody talk about how CSS could only create “boring, boxy” designs? It’s got to be about twenty years for me. It’s practically forgotten. Pointing that out was the whole purpose of my comment. Both of your replies to me in this thread are about that chip on your shoulder, not about what I am saying. You should post your own thoughts as a top-level comment like I did, not get angry with me for not talking about what you want to talk about.
- Griffinsauce 1y ago> [IE] held the web hostage for a decade. I wonder whether we'll ever get to reach this point with Safari. Especially with regards to PWAs and the insane state of "native" apps.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- DaiPlusPlus 1y agoIf that's how your feel about CSS, what do you think about XSLT?
- timeon 1y agoYou could easily make float/clear layout for dynamic content.
- unconed 1y agoPop quiz: make a 3 columns layout with fixed width header and sidebars, with a sticky footer at the bottom of the page, and which reaches full height even if the main content is shorter than the sidebar, or vice versa... even if the whole page is shorter than the browser. It must work in IE6-8. Spoiler: you can't.