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Some of the perpetrators: "Two former students from the prestigious Seoul National University (SNU)" and "a quiet, introverted student “someone you’d never imag

by hliyan 2y ago

Some of the perpetrators: "Two former students from the prestigious Seoul National University (SNU)" and "a quiet, introverted student “someone you’d never imagine doing such a thing,”". "...lot of articles and comments about deepfakes saying, ‘Why is it a serious crime when it’s not even your real body?’”" This seems like a deep societal issue that cannot be solved through harsh criminal penalties alone.

lazide 2y ago
Thought experiment - what if it was someone making a really convincing painting of the same thing? These are of course real issues, which is why this is going to be an increasingly large problem. The easiest way to ‘deal’ with them is to double down on them - aka [https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3jfqo9/til_the_kgb_tried_to_blackmail_indonesian/ https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3jfqo9/til_t...] - but not very many people have the, uh, testicular fortitude to be able to do that. Especially women. Neo-Victorian’ism anyone?
- djur 2y ago
  1) Sukarno had less to worry about than a schoolteacher (like in the article), perhaps. Teachers can get fired for even a hint of scandal. 2) Victorian men loved porn, prostitution, etc. The "prudishness" of the Victorian era was enforced on women. Deepfakes are just part of the same long tradition of women being deprived of sexual agency and autonomy.
  - lazide 2y ago
    Sukarno only had less to worry about because he had ensured he has less to worry about. Dictators have been murdered over nothing, let alone scandals - but he was strong enough at the time that yes, it would have just propped up his image. Teachers rarely have that degree of control of their environment. SK (like most Asian societies) also has a huge ‘crabs in a bucket’ problem, also known as ‘the nail that sticks out gets hammered down’. The Victorian era saw most women (statistically) in unstable relationships, and a great many using prostitution to support themselves. Which also gave them a lot of individual freedom. It was also a time of incredible social mobility, and also fraud. The ‘prudishness’ was as much society trying to use shaming and in group/out group dynamics to maintain control and some degree of integrity to limit the damage from the widespread disruption of the social fabric. It also was applied against men, but men are able to leave easier/escape, as they don’t have the biological issue of being pregnant/young kids in tow to slow them down. Which is also why so many of the middle class had to do things like rent tableware (or even food), etc. to appear ‘upper class’ to avoid being kicked out of whatever support circle they needed, and keep some semblance of propriety. It was an extremely unstable time for everyone, precisely because so many were ‘free’. Society is, and always will be, a giant ouroboros/wheel of control, influence, fighting for independence, etc. The reason why women get stomped on to try to deprive them of sexual agency and autonomy, is precisely because they have so much power with sexual agency. Most women, if unrestricted, can get most men to do almost anything they want using sex. Most men, if unrestricted, can then leave to go do something else, leaving the woman ‘holding the bag’ when she is pregnant. Birth control has unhinged the equation quite a lot, and free flow of information is doing so even more. That scares all the rest of the women, and many of the men, which is why we have what we have. The more freedom is actually present, the more unhinged the attacks eventually become. Because the goal is control, even if it is pathological control. Interesting times, eh?
    - Snow_Falls 1y ago
      "Most women, if unrestricted, can get most men to do almost anything they want using sex." You have a deeply negative view of my sex. Do you seriously believe that all men are robots who loose all agency when they're horny? If so, why isn't all the world run by women?
      - lazide 1y ago
        Definitely not what I said. You might want to read it again. Quite odd to take a negative reading out of it too, especially since if you’d read the context it would have answered your own question quite clearly eh? North and South are two magnetic poles that can only exist because the other does. Structured one way, they can form one of the most powerful and directed kinds of motors possible. Structured another, one of the most destructive forces possible. If aware. Unstructured or mixed up, just makes a chaotic goo, or nothing at all. Would you take a similar negative view on ‘most men, uncontrolled, can kill almost anything that walks on this earth.’? Do you think that makes lions, tigers, bears, etc. little blobs of jelly ripe for the taking? Personally, I take it as a super power, because it is true - despite them definitely not being blobs of jelly. Just like what I said above, despite all men definitely not being robots.
- aidenn0 2y ago
  People used to use photo-editing software to do the same thing 20 years ago. A significant change in the prevalence of something (due to making it easier in this case: painting->photoshop->AI tools), can make a qualitative difference in the harm. A really dedicated person might crank out a painting or two per week, and a minuscule fraction of the population has the skills to do so at all. Around the turn of the millennium, a much larger (but still small) fraction of the population had access and skills to use digital photo editing tools, and it still took quite some time if you wanted to make something convincing. I am fairly confident that if one were to spend an hour or two researching how, a significant fraction of the population could generate dozens of images in a single evening.
rwyinuse 2y ago
Yeah, there is a reason why South Korea continues to break records for the lowest fertility rate in the world, making even Japan's birth rate issues look small in comparison. Their society appears to be deeply, deeply sick in numerous ways. Not a good place to live, unless your calling is to work all your waking hours to make the rich even richer.
- dyauspitr 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - phinnaeus 2y ago
    It is not so hard for me to imagine a world where women have equal freedoms to men and are not actively discouraged from having children. We have structured society in such a way that it is often the more rational financial, logistical, etc choice to be child free. Do you think we can fix those problems without stripping women of freedoms? I do.
    - dyauspitr 2y ago
      Maybe eventually but I think South Korea is already at or very close to the point of no return from total population collapse. Given that we’ve never seen an example of what you’re referring to we probably won’t get there in time.
      - djaychela 2y ago
        https://youtu.be/Ufmu1WD2TSk?si=DY3pla26JO3nTF1b https://youtu.be/Ufmu1WD2TSk?si=DY3pla26JO3nTF1b This video covers it pretty well
  - alex_duf 2y ago
    Sure, I mean using force and coercion is one way to obtain what you want! Not sure that's the society I want my daughters to live in though, maybe there's a way to have both equal rights and promote family values? Like having access to healthcare, reduce the social stigma of being a parent, ensuring there's support for new families, keeping the cost down... Etc!
lelanthran 1y ago
> ...lot of articles and comments about deepfakes saying, ‘Why is it a serious crime when it’s not even your real body?’ Impersonating someone else is always a serious crime. We call it fraud.
- WhatsName 1y ago
  Impersonation is a mean, which can often but does not always necessitate fraud. One might impersonate Arnold Schwarzenegger for comedic effect, one might also impersonate a daughter to steal money from a grandma. Stealing the money is the crime here, one does not impersonate without purpose, the purpose defines the severity (or lack of) crime...
hyperjeff 1y ago
Are there any crimes that are solved via harsh criminal penalties?

by hliyan 2y ago

lazide 2y ago

Thought experiment - what if it was someone making a really convincing painting of the same thing? These are of course real issues, which is why this is going to be an increasingly large problem. The easiest way to ‘deal’ with them is to double down on them - aka [https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3jfqo9/til_the_kgb_tried_to_blackmail_indonesian/ https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3jfqo9/til_t...] - but not very many people have the, uh, testicular fortitude to be able to do that. Especially women. Neo-Victorian’ism anyone?

djur 2y ago
1) Sukarno had less to worry about than a schoolteacher (like in the article), perhaps. Teachers can get fired for even a hint of scandal. 2) Victorian men loved porn, prostitution, etc. The "prudishness" of the Victorian era was enforced on women. Deepfakes are just part of the same long tradition of women being deprived of sexual agency and autonomy.
- lazide 2y ago
  Sukarno only had less to worry about because he had ensured he has less to worry about. Dictators have been murdered over nothing, let alone scandals - but he was strong enough at the time that yes, it would have just propped up his image. Teachers rarely have that degree of control of their environment. SK (like most Asian societies) also has a huge ‘crabs in a bucket’ problem, also known as ‘the nail that sticks out gets hammered down’. The Victorian era saw most women (statistically) in unstable relationships, and a great many using prostitution to support themselves. Which also gave them a lot of individual freedom. It was also a time of incredible social mobility, and also fraud. The ‘prudishness’ was as much society trying to use shaming and in group/out group dynamics to maintain control and some degree of integrity to limit the damage from the widespread disruption of the social fabric. It also was applied against men, but men are able to leave easier/escape, as they don’t have the biological issue of being pregnant/young kids in tow to slow them down. Which is also why so many of the middle class had to do things like rent tableware (or even food), etc. to appear ‘upper class’ to avoid being kicked out of whatever support circle they needed, and keep some semblance of propriety. It was an extremely unstable time for everyone, precisely because so many were ‘free’. Society is, and always will be, a giant ouroboros/wheel of control, influence, fighting for independence, etc. The reason why women get stomped on to try to deprive them of sexual agency and autonomy, is precisely because they have so much power with sexual agency. Most women, if unrestricted, can get most men to do almost anything they want using sex. Most men, if unrestricted, can then leave to go do something else, leaving the woman ‘holding the bag’ when she is pregnant. Birth control has unhinged the equation quite a lot, and free flow of information is doing so even more. That scares all the rest of the women, and many of the men, which is why we have what we have. The more freedom is actually present, the more unhinged the attacks eventually become. Because the goal is control, even if it is pathological control. Interesting times, eh?
  - Snow_Falls 1y ago
    "Most women, if unrestricted, can get most men to do almost anything they want using sex." You have a deeply negative view of my sex. Do you seriously believe that all men are robots who loose all agency when they're horny? If so, why isn't all the world run by women?
    - lazide 1y ago
      Definitely not what I said. You might want to read it again. Quite odd to take a negative reading out of it too, especially since if you’d read the context it would have answered your own question quite clearly eh? North and South are two magnetic poles that can only exist because the other does. Structured one way, they can form one of the most powerful and directed kinds of motors possible. Structured another, one of the most destructive forces possible. If aware. Unstructured or mixed up, just makes a chaotic goo, or nothing at all. Would you take a similar negative view on ‘most men, uncontrolled, can kill almost anything that walks on this earth.’? Do you think that makes lions, tigers, bears, etc. little blobs of jelly ripe for the taking? Personally, I take it as a super power, because it is true - despite them definitely not being blobs of jelly. Just like what I said above, despite all men definitely not being robots.
aidenn0 2y ago
People used to use photo-editing software to do the same thing 20 years ago. A significant change in the prevalence of something (due to making it easier in this case: painting->photoshop->AI tools), can make a qualitative difference in the harm. A really dedicated person might crank out a painting or two per week, and a minuscule fraction of the population has the skills to do so at all. Around the turn of the millennium, a much larger (but still small) fraction of the population had access and skills to use digital photo editing tools, and it still took quite some time if you wanted to make something convincing. I am fairly confident that if one were to spend an hour or two researching how, a significant fraction of the population could generate dozens of images in a single evening.

rwyinuse 2y ago

Yeah, there is a reason why South Korea continues to break records for the lowest fertility rate in the world, making even Japan's birth rate issues look small in comparison. Their society appears to be deeply, deeply sick in numerous ways. Not a good place to live, unless your calling is to work all your waking hours to make the rich even richer.

dyauspitr 2y ago
[flagged]
- phinnaeus 2y ago
  It is not so hard for me to imagine a world where women have equal freedoms to men and are not actively discouraged from having children. We have structured society in such a way that it is often the more rational financial, logistical, etc choice to be child free. Do you think we can fix those problems without stripping women of freedoms? I do.
  - dyauspitr 2y ago
    Maybe eventually but I think South Korea is already at or very close to the point of no return from total population collapse. Given that we’ve never seen an example of what you’re referring to we probably won’t get there in time.
    - djaychela 2y ago
      https://youtu.be/Ufmu1WD2TSk?si=DY3pla26JO3nTF1b https://youtu.be/Ufmu1WD2TSk?si=DY3pla26JO3nTF1b This video covers it pretty well
- alex_duf 2y ago
  Sure, I mean using force and coercion is one way to obtain what you want! Not sure that's the society I want my daughters to live in though, maybe there's a way to have both equal rights and promote family values? Like having access to healthcare, reduce the social stigma of being a parent, ensuring there's support for new families, keeping the cost down... Etc!

lelanthran 1y ago

> ...lot of articles and comments about deepfakes saying, ‘Why is it a serious crime when it’s not even your real body?’ Impersonating someone else is always a serious crime. We call it fraud.

WhatsName 1y ago
Impersonation is a mean, which can often but does not always necessitate fraud. One might impersonate Arnold Schwarzenegger for comedic effect, one might also impersonate a daughter to steal money from a grandma. Stealing the money is the crime here, one does not impersonate without purpose, the purpose defines the severity (or lack of) crime...

hyperjeff 1y ago

Are there any crimes that are solved via harsh criminal penalties?