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1) I want all restaurant workers to just get a fair proper wage... 2) So that tipping is no longer subsidizing the restaurant owners. 3) Also, FFS, when deman

1) I want all restaurant workers to just get a fair proper wage... 2) So that tipping is no longer subsidizing the restaurant owners. 3) Also, FFS, when demand is inelastic, the only way to lower prices is MORE SUPPLY (where it's needed). Build the housing, do not stop, just keep going until after we all die.

tptacek 1y ago
Tipping doesn't subsidize the restaurant owners.
- n4r9 1y ago
  I'm guessing they mean that without tipping, more of the restaurant's revenue would go towards wages.
  - tptacek 1y ago
    Sure, but the prices would also be commensurately higher.
    - n4r9 1y ago
      Does that make it not a subsidy? We say that the US govt subsidises oil companies even though petrol prices would be higher if they stopped.
    - tossandthrow 1y ago
      Thisnis one of these counter arguments you often hear in favor of low wages in general. And it is a horrendous argument. You are literally actively arguing for greater inequality. If a company can not cover their costs with their revenue, then they need to cease to exists. And ofcause they need to pay fair market wages.
      - scarface_74 1y ago
        [flagged]
        tossandthrow 1y ago
        What? The underlying assumption is that, even VC backed companies, can cover their costs with their revenue. It is just a matter of order. When you have capital heavy enterprises, you usually have your costs before you have your revenue.
        scarface_74 1y ago
        The purpose of VC funding is not to reach profitability. It’s the reach an “exit” - usually via an acquisition or occasionally via an IPO. But out of the literally thousands of companies that YC has funded, only about a dozen have gone public and out of those, if you had invested equally when they IPOd, you would have lost about 50% of your investment. https://medium.com/@kazeemibrahim18/the-post-ipo-performance-of-y-combinator-companies-a-mixed-bag-of-success-and-struggle-58e9a4006f01 https://medium.com/@kazeemibrahim18/the-post-ipo-performance... A “success” for a VC company is not a company that ends up being a lifestyle business that muddles along.
    - 10000truths 1y ago
      The consumer already paying the "higher price" through tips. I much prefer transparent pricing with no hidden expectations or fees.
    - xoa 1y ago
      >but the prices would also be commensurately higher. No, the prices would be more transparent, not higher. You've made clear in other comments ITT that you believe tipping to be mandatory ("If you don't want to tip, don't dine at full-service restaurants in America"), which means you consider prices 15% or more higher then sticker price to already be the rule. Requiring that to be part of the advertised price instead of hidden is purely good for free market efficiency. Anything that isn't fully optional should be part of the advertised price. The employers and employees have superior information for correct decisions, and once a transaction (dining) has already been committed to a superior position of power as well.
      - tptacek 1y ago
        I mean, you can not tip. It's contemptible behavior in the US, but you can do it.
    - samastur 1y ago
      They already are, it's just expected you calculate yourself the real price.
  - abdullahkhalids 1y ago
    Which is likely incorrect. Suppose currently a meal costs 20, and the average tip is 15%, so that the customer pays 23. This means that the restaurant knows that customer is willing to pay 23 for a meal. Now, get rid of tipping. The restaurant will raise prices to 23 per meal. And instead of that 3 ending up in the waiter's pockets it will instead be split between the owner and the waiter. Most likely, the worker's wages will be likely suppressed down to minimum wage and the owner will get whatever remains of the 3. You will need to do more interventions beyond removing tipping to ensure waiters get more than minimum wage.
    - n4r9 1y ago
      In most states, the minimum wage for tipped workers is significantly less than the minimum wage otherwise: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped If we assume that the restaurant owner pays the minimum possible wage out of the revenue, then the claim is correct.
amrocha 1y ago
Restaurant workers already get a fair wage. At minimum they make minimum wage. If you don’t think the minimum wage is fair then fight to raise it. Otherwise you’re gonna have to start tipping at a lot more places than just restaurants.
- n4r9 1y ago
  There are many states where the minimum wage for restaurant workers is $2.13: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped
  - amrocha 1y ago
    If workers make less than minimum wage from tips, then the employer needs to make up that difference.
scotty79 1y ago
> Build the housing, do not stop, just keep going until after we all die. China did exactly that. And ended up with 3 apartments per each citizen. Most of them perpetually empty because real estate is still expensive there.
TipsForCanoes 1y ago
I think this could be solved with two small legal changes. 1. Abolish lower minimum wages for so called "tipped" workers and raise it to a fair value. 2. Make it illegal for any business to solicit tips. If a customer wishes to tip then they certainly can but no business should be allowed to pressure you (and just asking is pressure) into paying more than the price they are listing for an item.

tptacek 1y ago

Tipping doesn't subsidize the restaurant owners.

n4r9 1y ago
I'm guessing they mean that without tipping, more of the restaurant's revenue would go towards wages.
- tptacek 1y ago
  Sure, but the prices would also be commensurately higher.
  - n4r9 1y ago
    Does that make it not a subsidy? We say that the US govt subsidises oil companies even though petrol prices would be higher if they stopped.
  - tossandthrow 1y ago
    Thisnis one of these counter arguments you often hear in favor of low wages in general. And it is a horrendous argument. You are literally actively arguing for greater inequality. If a company can not cover their costs with their revenue, then they need to cease to exists. And ofcause they need to pay fair market wages.
    - scarface_74 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - tossandthrow 1y ago
        What? The underlying assumption is that, even VC backed companies, can cover their costs with their revenue. It is just a matter of order. When you have capital heavy enterprises, you usually have your costs before you have your revenue.
        scarface_74 1y ago
        The purpose of VC funding is not to reach profitability. It’s the reach an “exit” - usually via an acquisition or occasionally via an IPO. But out of the literally thousands of companies that YC has funded, only about a dozen have gone public and out of those, if you had invested equally when they IPOd, you would have lost about 50% of your investment. https://medium.com/@kazeemibrahim18/the-post-ipo-performance-of-y-combinator-companies-a-mixed-bag-of-success-and-struggle-58e9a4006f01 https://medium.com/@kazeemibrahim18/the-post-ipo-performance... A “success” for a VC company is not a company that ends up being a lifestyle business that muddles along.
  - 10000truths 1y ago
    The consumer already paying the "higher price" through tips. I much prefer transparent pricing with no hidden expectations or fees.
  - xoa 1y ago
    >but the prices would also be commensurately higher. No, the prices would be more transparent, not higher. You've made clear in other comments ITT that you believe tipping to be mandatory ("If you don't want to tip, don't dine at full-service restaurants in America"), which means you consider prices 15% or more higher then sticker price to already be the rule. Requiring that to be part of the advertised price instead of hidden is purely good for free market efficiency. Anything that isn't fully optional should be part of the advertised price. The employers and employees have superior information for correct decisions, and once a transaction (dining) has already been committed to a superior position of power as well.
    - tptacek 1y ago
      I mean, you can not tip. It's contemptible behavior in the US, but you can do it.
  - samastur 1y ago
    They already are, it's just expected you calculate yourself the real price.
- abdullahkhalids 1y ago
  Which is likely incorrect. Suppose currently a meal costs 20, and the average tip is 15%, so that the customer pays 23. This means that the restaurant knows that customer is willing to pay 23 for a meal. Now, get rid of tipping. The restaurant will raise prices to 23 per meal. And instead of that 3 ending up in the waiter's pockets it will instead be split between the owner and the waiter. Most likely, the worker's wages will be likely suppressed down to minimum wage and the owner will get whatever remains of the 3. You will need to do more interventions beyond removing tipping to ensure waiters get more than minimum wage.
  - n4r9 1y ago
    In most states, the minimum wage for tipped workers is significantly less than the minimum wage otherwise: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped If we assume that the restaurant owner pays the minimum possible wage out of the revenue, then the claim is correct.

amrocha 1y ago

Restaurant workers already get a fair wage. At minimum they make minimum wage. If you don’t think the minimum wage is fair then fight to raise it. Otherwise you’re gonna have to start tipping at a lot more places than just restaurants.

n4r9 1y ago
There are many states where the minimum wage for restaurant workers is $2.13: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped
- amrocha 1y ago
  If workers make less than minimum wage from tips, then the employer needs to make up that difference.

scotty79 1y ago

> Build the housing, do not stop, just keep going until after we all die. China did exactly that. And ended up with 3 apartments per each citizen. Most of them perpetually empty because real estate is still expensive there.

TipsForCanoes 1y ago

I think this could be solved with two small legal changes. 1. Abolish lower minimum wages for so called "tipped" workers and raise it to a fair value. 2. Make it illegal for any business to solicit tips. If a customer wishes to tip then they certainly can but no business should be allowed to pressure you (and just asking is pressure) into paying more than the price they are listing for an item.