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> Seems like same rule about flags[1]: a child should be able to draw it from memory. Im a grown ass man and can't draw the US flag properly from memory, much

> Seems like same rule about flags[1]: a child should be able to draw it from memory. Im a grown ass man and can't draw the US flag properly from memory, much less the many far more complicated flags out there. I don't think that definition is particularly useful.

jonchurch_ 1y ago
It is a useful concept, and letting the whispers of the vexillophiles[0] into your head will lead you to see that most flags are well, pretty bad. CGP Grey has a lot of opinions[1] about this. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vexillology https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vexillology [1] https://youtu.be/l4w6808wJcU https://youtu.be/l4w6808wJcU
godelski 1y ago
It's a "you should" kind of rule not a "everyone follows this with no exceptions" kind of rule. Come to think of it, I'm not sure I can think of an example of the latter
- thaumasiotes 1y ago
  > It's a "you should" kind of rule not a "everyone follows this with no exceptions" kind of rule. It's not a "you should" kind of rule either. It's something someone made up and wants to persuade other people of for no particular reason, similar to "don't split infinitives". There is no benefit to having people be able to draw the flag accurately. A flag has two purposes: 1. Be easy to recognize. 2. Be visually impressive. Two good flags are the flag of California and the flag of Saudi Arabia. You'd have a hard time drawing either one, but that's not a problem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Saudi_Arabia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Saudi_Arabia (Note also that I've seen a Spaniard claim her flag was easy to draw. She meant that it's easy to draw if you don't bother to draw the coat of arms.)
  - godelski 1y ago
    > There is no benefit to having people be able to draw the flag accurately. A flag has two purposes: The purposes you mention are much more easily achieved by being simple to draw. Yes, it is something "someone is arguing" but it's congruent with general design principles you will see in most domains. > a Spaniard claim her flag was easy to draw. She meant that it's easy to draw if you don't bother to draw the coat of arms. She's not exactly wrong. Many countries use variants of flags for different uses. In the case of Spain[0] the civil flag does not have the coat of arms. For a similar case, see the flag of Germany[1], Austria[2], Peru[3], Finland[4], Italy[5], and need I go on? I don't think you should be ashamed for not knowing, but it's worth recognizing how easy it is to miscommunicate because different inherent assumptions are being made. In your case it is unsurprising that there is this disagreement because she sees the civil flag commonly and you don't, so it seems like a cop-out to you while it is pretty reasonable for her. There's surprisingly (annoyingly) a lot of depth to seemingly simple things. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Spain [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Germany [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Austria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Austria [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Peru https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Peru [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Finland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Finland [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Italy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Italy
    - thaumasiotes 1y ago
      > The purposes you mention are much more easily achieved by being simple to draw. No, that is not true for either purpose. Being simple to draw is a negative in both cases: (1) Things that are simple to draw can be easy to recognize, but things that are complex are easier to recognize. (2) Things that are simple to draw are never visually impressive. And the flags that are easy to draw are so simple that it's interfering with the ability to recognize them. The first example there would be Ireland vs the Ivory Coast: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ireland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ireland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ivory_Coast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ivory_Coast Another common confusion is Russia vs France, though in that case someone who needs to be able to tell the difference won't have trouble: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_France > For a similar case, see the flag of Germany[1], Austria[2], Peru[3], Finland[4], Italy[5], and need I go on? Go on? Try beginning first. Every single one of those links presents the flag without the coat of arms as a default and the flag with the coat of arms as a special case.
opan 1y ago
Look at the flags for Texas and Chile for a more reasonable version of the US flag. The new Minnesota flag is an example of a good flag by these rules as well.

jonchurch_ 1y ago

It is a useful concept, and letting the whispers of the vexillophiles[0] into your head will lead you to see that most flags are well, pretty bad. CGP Grey has a lot of opinions[1] about this. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vexillology https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vexillology [1] https://youtu.be/l4w6808wJcU https://youtu.be/l4w6808wJcU

godelski 1y ago

It's a "you should" kind of rule not a "everyone follows this with no exceptions" kind of rule. Come to think of it, I'm not sure I can think of an example of the latter

thaumasiotes 1y ago
> It's a "you should" kind of rule not a "everyone follows this with no exceptions" kind of rule. It's not a "you should" kind of rule either. It's something someone made up and wants to persuade other people of for no particular reason, similar to "don't split infinitives". There is no benefit to having people be able to draw the flag accurately. A flag has two purposes: 1. Be easy to recognize. 2. Be visually impressive. Two good flags are the flag of California and the flag of Saudi Arabia. You'd have a hard time drawing either one, but that's not a problem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Saudi_Arabia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Saudi_Arabia (Note also that I've seen a Spaniard claim her flag was easy to draw. She meant that it's easy to draw if you don't bother to draw the coat of arms.)
- godelski 1y ago
  > There is no benefit to having people be able to draw the flag accurately. A flag has two purposes: The purposes you mention are much more easily achieved by being simple to draw. Yes, it is something "someone is arguing" but it's congruent with general design principles you will see in most domains. > a Spaniard claim her flag was easy to draw. She meant that it's easy to draw if you don't bother to draw the coat of arms. She's not exactly wrong. Many countries use variants of flags for different uses. In the case of Spain[0] the civil flag does not have the coat of arms. For a similar case, see the flag of Germany[1], Austria[2], Peru[3], Finland[4], Italy[5], and need I go on? I don't think you should be ashamed for not knowing, but it's worth recognizing how easy it is to miscommunicate because different inherent assumptions are being made. In your case it is unsurprising that there is this disagreement because she sees the civil flag commonly and you don't, so it seems like a cop-out to you while it is pretty reasonable for her. There's surprisingly (annoyingly) a lot of depth to seemingly simple things. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Spain [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Germany [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Austria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Austria [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Peru https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Peru [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Finland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Finland [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Italy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Italy
  - thaumasiotes 1y ago
    > The purposes you mention are much more easily achieved by being simple to draw. No, that is not true for either purpose. Being simple to draw is a negative in both cases: (1) Things that are simple to draw can be easy to recognize, but things that are complex are easier to recognize. (2) Things that are simple to draw are never visually impressive. And the flags that are easy to draw are so simple that it's interfering with the ability to recognize them. The first example there would be Ireland vs the Ivory Coast: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ireland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ireland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ivory_Coast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ivory_Coast Another common confusion is Russia vs France, though in that case someone who needs to be able to tell the difference won't have trouble: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_France > For a similar case, see the flag of Germany[1], Austria[2], Peru[3], Finland[4], Italy[5], and need I go on? Go on? Try beginning first. Every single one of those links presents the flag without the coat of arms as a default and the flag with the coat of arms as a special case.

opan 1y ago

Look at the flags for Texas and Chile for a more reasonable version of the US flag. The new Minnesota flag is an example of a good flag by these rules as well.