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Re point (5), the "gang of eight" bill would've been the de facto process (illegally entering, having children or marrying, attempting to bring family over via

Re point (5), the "gang of eight" bill would've been the de facto process (illegally entering, having children or marrying, attempting to bring family over via chain migration) the de jure one via advertising to the rest of the word that violating US immigration law does not matter. We ended up running an experiment over the course of the last 4 years to see what that looks like and the results are grim. >There are simply too many people who have strong opinions and yet believe untrue things about American immigration. You appear to be operating from a different premise than people who are skeptical of past efforts to "reform" immigration law. "Permanent legal mass migration" is not the bargain the country wants to make, and thus far every attempt to "reform" immigration operates from that initial premise.

BobaFloutist 1y ago
Our economy, ability to feed ourselves, and ability to sustain our population is fundamentally dependent on "Permanent legal mass migration."
- throwaway48476 1y ago
  Wages are too low to incentivize investment in automating these jobs, precisely because of illegal immigration.
  - digitaltrees 1y ago
    What? China has dark factories now. Did their wages pass ours without anyone noticing? Please show your homework because the underlying logic seems exactly opposite of the facts.
    - throwaway48476 1y ago
      In some places Chinese labor is at price parity. However the reasons why China has dark factories is government investment and an abundance of mechatronics engineers. People build factories in China because all the other factories are in China just down the road. None of this contradicts my previous comment though. We don't invest in automation because we have cheap labor. China is an aging society with a shrinking workforce. Here we have cheap labor and offload the cost to the taxpayer. Illegal immigration is just another part of corporate welfare which is why socialists like Bernie sanders used to be against it.
      - digitaltrees 1y ago
        Your counter argument clearly cuts against your initial argument. Low wages isn’t preventing automation. It’s lack of an ecosystem of similar suppliers, lack of highly trained talent and lack of government and market investment. Liberals aren’t against immigration because it is corporate welfare but because of the strain it places on the social safety net and effects on jobs but both of those could be overcome with a rational policy on special economic zones.
    - thephyber 1y ago
      Chinese dark factories aren’t harvesting bruisable fruits and veggies. Dark factories are specifically selected for tasks that are easily automated with extremely high precision. Most of agriculture isn’t.
  - LorenPechtel 1y ago
    The jobs that don't require a delicate hand are to a large degree already automated. But the robots are not up to the delicate stuff.
    - remarkEon 1y ago
      >But the robots are not up to the delicate stuff. Robots did my dad's knee replacement surgery. I don't think this argument holds water anymore. Maybe if you make your claim more precise: delicate + scale. But, if that's the case, the scale problem is solved with money.
      - saagarjha 1y ago
        Robots? Or a human doctor that controlled it?
      - LorenPechtel 1y ago
        Lots of teleoperated stuff in the medical world. That's not the same as robots. There's still a skilled hand at the controls making the medical decisions.
- remarkEon 1y ago
  This is a really bizarre claim to make. Are you claiming that the United States is, idk, forgetting how to farm and so we have to do mass immigration to bring in people who remember how? It also flies in the face of historical facts, like how the United States gained its status as an industrial powerhouse when immigration was at its lowest point in its history.
  - thephyber 1y ago
    It’s not about knowledge. It’s about having people willing to use their strong backs. Very few agricultural products are harvestable without the use of hands at the current prices. And when states have cracked down on illegal immigrants, farmers cry bloody murder that native-born Americans can’t last 1-2 days doing that work. American living standards are FAR higher than those of the people who are willing to work agricultural fields.
    - remarkEon 1y ago
      Okay. Then build robots to do it. Have you thought for a second about why these robots don't already exist? Perhaps it has something to do with available cheap labor. Really really strange to see a pro-immigration argument that amounts to "Big Ag needs their slave labor".
      - GuestFAUniverse 1y ago
        There wasn't even a single, popular vacuum robot with less then 7% one star ratings (complaints with valid utter failure). How naïve must one be to expect decent robots for farming. And those very soon? Do you believe in Santa? Or Tesla FSD?
        remarkEon 1y ago
        A little difficult to parse your comment, but I think you're calling me naïve for asking the tech community on a message board for the incubator that has backed and does back the some of the most successful tech startups ever to think a little more deeply about how to solve these kinds of problems with technology. Wherein I posit that one of the reasons this tech community seemingly lacks interest - and surely the difficulty of the problem is also one of those reasons - is the availability of cheap labor, resulting in a weak argument for funding this kind of venture. Interesting.
digitaltrees 1y ago
Define grim? Surging stock market, reduced inflation? 4% of the global population producing 75% of Nobel prizes ( half of which are immigrants), robust high tech manufacturing? Robust agriculture that was recovered from the first round of tariffs? Increased housing stock stabilizing prices? The Chips act and infrastructure bill that would have accelerated strategic manufacturing growth? Clean energy investments that would have given us more power for AI.
- remarkEon 1y ago
  These are all things that sound great to a religious listener of Ezra Klein’s podcast but normal people either don’t know about them, don’t care about them, or disagree with them.
  - thephyber 1y ago
    I don’t think we should make policy specifically to cater to the part of a voting constituency (the willingly ignorant) who doesn’t know about the factual benefits of a large incoming immigration policy. Policy should be made to cater to factual objective reality, not to make people feel better. Ezra Klein isn’t for the unwashed masses. He’s not even interesting to the average Democrat. His content is specifically for people who care about boring facts and policy. Obviously MMA and WWE fans and crude comedian fans will respond more to show of force, peacocking, and loud brash speeches. These things are vapid when it comes to politics. They only serve to elect Dark Triad figures, not good policy makers. The problem with immigration is that we need it (just to maintain replacement rates and economic growth), but the average American voter says they don’t want it. Also worth pointing out that it’s likely that Democrats didn’t move on securing the border earlier in Biden’s term because all of the people criticizing Biden’s immigration policy were crying wolf for years or decades before it actually became a huge problem.
    - remarkEon 1y ago
      Well, I agree with you (sort of), but democracy lacks a solution for this problem (ignorant people existing and voting). Unless you are going to give everyone an IQ test before they register to vote or some other means to test some "eligibility" dimension it doesn't seem solvable, since those options are non-starters in western democracies. >The problem with immigration is that we need it (just to maintain replacement rates and economic growth), but the average American voter says they don’t want it. What would be helpful here is if people who state this so plainly as a matter of fact actually took the time to interrogate why they think that way. I don't think this statement is true, quite the opposite. You are sort of hinting at the real problem in your parenthetical, not sure if you were intentional in that regard. One should probably determine why the birthrate in a particular nation is below replacement before concluding that the only solution is "infinity immigration". Moreover, economic growth is not the end-all-be-all of a country, since these are places with history and a people in them and not a "special economic zone" there the only reason anyone lives there is to conduct economic activity.

BobaFloutist 1y ago

Our economy, ability to feed ourselves, and ability to sustain our population is fundamentally dependent on "Permanent legal mass migration."

throwaway48476 1y ago
Wages are too low to incentivize investment in automating these jobs, precisely because of illegal immigration.
- digitaltrees 1y ago
  What? China has dark factories now. Did their wages pass ours without anyone noticing? Please show your homework because the underlying logic seems exactly opposite of the facts.
  - throwaway48476 1y ago
    In some places Chinese labor is at price parity. However the reasons why China has dark factories is government investment and an abundance of mechatronics engineers. People build factories in China because all the other factories are in China just down the road. None of this contradicts my previous comment though. We don't invest in automation because we have cheap labor. China is an aging society with a shrinking workforce. Here we have cheap labor and offload the cost to the taxpayer. Illegal immigration is just another part of corporate welfare which is why socialists like Bernie sanders used to be against it.
    - digitaltrees 1y ago
      Your counter argument clearly cuts against your initial argument. Low wages isn’t preventing automation. It’s lack of an ecosystem of similar suppliers, lack of highly trained talent and lack of government and market investment. Liberals aren’t against immigration because it is corporate welfare but because of the strain it places on the social safety net and effects on jobs but both of those could be overcome with a rational policy on special economic zones.
  - thephyber 1y ago
    Chinese dark factories aren’t harvesting bruisable fruits and veggies. Dark factories are specifically selected for tasks that are easily automated with extremely high precision. Most of agriculture isn’t.
- LorenPechtel 1y ago
  The jobs that don't require a delicate hand are to a large degree already automated. But the robots are not up to the delicate stuff.
  - remarkEon 1y ago
    >But the robots are not up to the delicate stuff. Robots did my dad's knee replacement surgery. I don't think this argument holds water anymore. Maybe if you make your claim more precise: delicate + scale. But, if that's the case, the scale problem is solved with money.
    - saagarjha 1y ago
      Robots? Or a human doctor that controlled it?
    - LorenPechtel 1y ago
      Lots of teleoperated stuff in the medical world. That's not the same as robots. There's still a skilled hand at the controls making the medical decisions.
remarkEon 1y ago
This is a really bizarre claim to make. Are you claiming that the United States is, idk, forgetting how to farm and so we have to do mass immigration to bring in people who remember how? It also flies in the face of historical facts, like how the United States gained its status as an industrial powerhouse when immigration was at its lowest point in its history.
- thephyber 1y ago
  It’s not about knowledge. It’s about having people willing to use their strong backs. Very few agricultural products are harvestable without the use of hands at the current prices. And when states have cracked down on illegal immigrants, farmers cry bloody murder that native-born Americans can’t last 1-2 days doing that work. American living standards are FAR higher than those of the people who are willing to work agricultural fields.
  - remarkEon 1y ago
    Okay. Then build robots to do it. Have you thought for a second about why these robots don't already exist? Perhaps it has something to do with available cheap labor. Really really strange to see a pro-immigration argument that amounts to "Big Ag needs their slave labor".
    - GuestFAUniverse 1y ago
      There wasn't even a single, popular vacuum robot with less then 7% one star ratings (complaints with valid utter failure). How naïve must one be to expect decent robots for farming. And those very soon? Do you believe in Santa? Or Tesla FSD?
      - remarkEon 1y ago
        A little difficult to parse your comment, but I think you're calling me naïve for asking the tech community on a message board for the incubator that has backed and does back the some of the most successful tech startups ever to think a little more deeply about how to solve these kinds of problems with technology. Wherein I posit that one of the reasons this tech community seemingly lacks interest - and surely the difficulty of the problem is also one of those reasons - is the availability of cheap labor, resulting in a weak argument for funding this kind of venture. Interesting.

digitaltrees 1y ago

Define grim? Surging stock market, reduced inflation? 4% of the global population producing 75% of Nobel prizes ( half of which are immigrants), robust high tech manufacturing? Robust agriculture that was recovered from the first round of tariffs? Increased housing stock stabilizing prices? The Chips act and infrastructure bill that would have accelerated strategic manufacturing growth? Clean energy investments that would have given us more power for AI.

remarkEon 1y ago
These are all things that sound great to a religious listener of Ezra Klein’s podcast but normal people either don’t know about them, don’t care about them, or disagree with them.
- thephyber 1y ago
  I don’t think we should make policy specifically to cater to the part of a voting constituency (the willingly ignorant) who doesn’t know about the factual benefits of a large incoming immigration policy. Policy should be made to cater to factual objective reality, not to make people feel better. Ezra Klein isn’t for the unwashed masses. He’s not even interesting to the average Democrat. His content is specifically for people who care about boring facts and policy. Obviously MMA and WWE fans and crude comedian fans will respond more to show of force, peacocking, and loud brash speeches. These things are vapid when it comes to politics. They only serve to elect Dark Triad figures, not good policy makers. The problem with immigration is that we need it (just to maintain replacement rates and economic growth), but the average American voter says they don’t want it. Also worth pointing out that it’s likely that Democrats didn’t move on securing the border earlier in Biden’s term because all of the people criticizing Biden’s immigration policy were crying wolf for years or decades before it actually became a huge problem.
  - remarkEon 1y ago
    Well, I agree with you (sort of), but democracy lacks a solution for this problem (ignorant people existing and voting). Unless you are going to give everyone an IQ test before they register to vote or some other means to test some "eligibility" dimension it doesn't seem solvable, since those options are non-starters in western democracies. >The problem with immigration is that we need it (just to maintain replacement rates and economic growth), but the average American voter says they don’t want it. What would be helpful here is if people who state this so plainly as a matter of fact actually took the time to interrogate why they think that way. I don't think this statement is true, quite the opposite. You are sort of hinting at the real problem in your parenthetical, not sure if you were intentional in that regard. One should probably determine why the birthrate in a particular nation is below replacement before concluding that the only solution is "infinity immigration". Moreover, economic growth is not the end-all-be-all of a country, since these are places with history and a people in them and not a "special economic zone" there the only reason anyone lives there is to conduct economic activity.