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It's a solved problem. Look at medical schools, we're not pumping out chatgpt doctors because we have actual in-person test proctoring that includes checking bi

by tmpz22 1y ago

It's a solved problem. Look at medical schools, we're not pumping out chatgpt doctors because we have actual in-person test proctoring that includes checking biometrics, taking photographs of the individual for posterity, oral examinations, etc. Right now educational institutions are facing budget shortfalls and responding by expanding remote education opportunities while compromising the quality of education not just because of cheating but because often the content and social circumstances are inferior. We are making short term decisions as an easy-fix to budget issues that will have substantial long-term consequences. The result is that the value of an American college degree is plummeting (ironically while costs still are increasing). This is part of the reason GenZ are starting to revolt against various institutions - they are the ones being screwed the most. The right path forward is acknowledging this insanity in the budgeting process, employment process, and loan markets. We won't do that though because it means admitting how much has been fucked up - institutions will double down and triple down in the face of DOGE threats.

_aavaa_ 1y ago
> Look at medical schools Medical schools don’t take in 18 year olds in North America. They can have more in depth entrance exams since the people come in are more mature. > This is the reason GenZ Or perhaps it may be the misinformation and rhetoric being used to inflame tried and true anti-intellectual sentiments.
- MegaButts 1y ago
  > Medical schools don’t take in 18 year olds in North America. They can have more in depth entrance exams since the people come in are more mature. Why do you need to be more mature to take an exam? We're not talking about toddlers - many (most?) of them are legal adults.
  - _aavaa_ 1y ago
    Legally yes, but if you’d had to interact with large numbers of those entering university for the first time you’d know they very much are not mentally adults yet. All of which is beside the point since this conversation is focusing on the most prestigious universities around. Most universities and colleges in North America don’t need such exams since they already accept basically anyone who applies.
    - MegaButts 1y ago
      I still don't understand why taking an in-person exam is considered some difficult ordeal that we cannot expect younger people to endure. I have no idea what culture you come from that this is even a talking point, let alone a debate. It has never occurred to me ever in any context that having an exam being proctored means I need to be mature? I took many hours-long proctored exams long before I was 18. What does being mature have to do with having a literal adult in the room? If anything it requires less maturity because you're requiring oversight. I truly do not understand your point at all.
      - _aavaa_ 1y ago
        I’m not arguing against proctored exams I’m arguing against: > proctoring that includes checking biometrics, taking photographs of the individual for posterity, oral examinations, etc. While I personally do actually believe test like that would be better than the kinds of exams being taken by students while at university I don’t see it as a realistic option for entrance exams. That sort of thing is simply not part of North American educational culture to a large degree. And for medical schools people practice and study and drill for months in order to prepare themselves for it. Also, for most colleges and universities it simply makes no sense to introduce such an exam (or any at all) since they accept everyone who applies; they need to in order to remain financially viable.
        MegaButts 1y ago
        Ah, now I see your point. I suspect the culture will change with the times assuming people want to give any credibility to universities moving forward. I remember how rampant cheating was where I went (decades ago) that I already put very little weight into degrees.
        _aavaa_ 1y ago
        I hope so. Though the economic realities often take precedence. The university of Waterloo is one of their most prestigious universities, so they might be able to create more rigorous entry requirements (though that does bring up the question of “are you really teaching students to be competent or simply pre-filtering for only competent students”). But they can only do this if it doesn’t impact their ability to stay solvent.
vunderba 1y ago
> chatgpt doctors because we have actual in-person test proctoring that includes checking biometrics, taking photographs of the individual for posterity, oral examinations, etc Yep. Related, but the software engineering industry did actually have (for a brief time) a PE Exam but it was sadly discontinued. https://ncees.org/ncees-discontinuing-pe-software-engineering-exam https://ncees.org/ncees-discontinuing-pe-software-engineerin... There's still a PE Electrical and Computer: Computer Engineering one but its definitely more focused on hardware. https://ncees.org/exams/pe-exam/electrical-and-computer https://ncees.org/exams/pe-exam/electrical-and-computer
- gpm 1y ago
  Software Engineering in Ontario, Canada, where the University of Waterloo is, still does PE exams and has PE designations for software engineers... Though most software developers actually go through CS not Software Engineering and that doesn't get you the PE designation. https://www.peo.on.ca/apply/become-professional-engineer/technical-exam-program https://www.peo.on.ca/apply/become-professional-engineer/tec...
gpm 1y ago
> The result is that the value of an American college degree is plummeting This Canadian university run high school coding contest isn't part of an American college degree. In fact it has no relation to any of that description. It isn't American. It isn't relating to a college at all by the Canadian understanding of that word (we distinguish between college and university, and Waterloo is the latter). It isn't for university (or college) students or related to a university (or college) degree. > Look at medical schools, we're not pumping out chatgpt doctors because we have actual in-person test proctoring that includes checking biometrics, taking photographs of the individual for posterity, oral examinations, etc. Extracurricular contests for high school students do not have the same funding or standards as medical exams to become a doctor for obvious reasons (in Canada, where I participated in these, but presumably anywhere).

by tmpz22 1y ago

_aavaa_ 1y ago

> Look at medical schools Medical schools don’t take in 18 year olds in North America. They can have more in depth entrance exams since the people come in are more mature. > This is the reason GenZ Or perhaps it may be the misinformation and rhetoric being used to inflame tried and true anti-intellectual sentiments.

MegaButts 1y ago
> Medical schools don’t take in 18 year olds in North America. They can have more in depth entrance exams since the people come in are more mature. Why do you need to be more mature to take an exam? We're not talking about toddlers - many (most?) of them are legal adults.
- _aavaa_ 1y ago
  Legally yes, but if you’d had to interact with large numbers of those entering university for the first time you’d know they very much are not mentally adults yet. All of which is beside the point since this conversation is focusing on the most prestigious universities around. Most universities and colleges in North America don’t need such exams since they already accept basically anyone who applies.
  - MegaButts 1y ago
    I still don't understand why taking an in-person exam is considered some difficult ordeal that we cannot expect younger people to endure. I have no idea what culture you come from that this is even a talking point, let alone a debate. It has never occurred to me ever in any context that having an exam being proctored means I need to be mature? I took many hours-long proctored exams long before I was 18. What does being mature have to do with having a literal adult in the room? If anything it requires less maturity because you're requiring oversight. I truly do not understand your point at all.
    - _aavaa_ 1y ago
      I’m not arguing against proctored exams I’m arguing against: > proctoring that includes checking biometrics, taking photographs of the individual for posterity, oral examinations, etc. While I personally do actually believe test like that would be better than the kinds of exams being taken by students while at university I don’t see it as a realistic option for entrance exams. That sort of thing is simply not part of North American educational culture to a large degree. And for medical schools people practice and study and drill for months in order to prepare themselves for it. Also, for most colleges and universities it simply makes no sense to introduce such an exam (or any at all) since they accept everyone who applies; they need to in order to remain financially viable.
      - MegaButts 1y ago
        Ah, now I see your point. I suspect the culture will change with the times assuming people want to give any credibility to universities moving forward. I remember how rampant cheating was where I went (decades ago) that I already put very little weight into degrees.
        _aavaa_ 1y ago
        I hope so. Though the economic realities often take precedence. The university of Waterloo is one of their most prestigious universities, so they might be able to create more rigorous entry requirements (though that does bring up the question of “are you really teaching students to be competent or simply pre-filtering for only competent students”). But they can only do this if it doesn’t impact their ability to stay solvent.

vunderba 1y ago

> chatgpt doctors because we have actual in-person test proctoring that includes checking biometrics, taking photographs of the individual for posterity, oral examinations, etc Yep. Related, but the software engineering industry did actually have (for a brief time) a PE Exam but it was sadly discontinued. https://ncees.org/ncees-discontinuing-pe-software-engineering-exam https://ncees.org/ncees-discontinuing-pe-software-engineerin... There's still a PE Electrical and Computer: Computer Engineering one but its definitely more focused on hardware. https://ncees.org/exams/pe-exam/electrical-and-computer https://ncees.org/exams/pe-exam/electrical-and-computer

gpm 1y ago
Software Engineering in Ontario, Canada, where the University of Waterloo is, still does PE exams and has PE designations for software engineers... Though most software developers actually go through CS not Software Engineering and that doesn't get you the PE designation. https://www.peo.on.ca/apply/become-professional-engineer/technical-exam-program https://www.peo.on.ca/apply/become-professional-engineer/tec...

gpm 1y ago

> The result is that the value of an American college degree is plummeting This Canadian university run high school coding contest isn't part of an American college degree. In fact it has no relation to any of that description. It isn't American. It isn't relating to a college at all by the Canadian understanding of that word (we distinguish between college and university, and Waterloo is the latter). It isn't for university (or college) students or related to a university (or college) degree. > Look at medical schools, we're not pumping out chatgpt doctors because we have actual in-person test proctoring that includes checking biometrics, taking photographs of the individual for posterity, oral examinations, etc. Extracurricular contests for high school students do not have the same funding or standards as medical exams to become a doctor for obvious reasons (in Canada, where I participated in these, but presumably anywhere).