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We've been talking about this for two decades at this point. Nothing is happening because too many people are willing to go in debt to get their degree. Fr

We've been talking about this for two decades at this point. Nothing is happening because too many people are willing to go in debt to get their degree. Free loans & Easy admissions Loans carry no risk | v Ample money supply for universities & no pressure to cut costs | v Increase in budget and expenses University FOMO for not being competitive on shiny offerings (Admin, fancy facilities, etc.) | v Perpetually raising costs Students take bigger loans | v Student loan crisis It's a perverse positive feedback system. The easiest lever to pull is adjusting the student loan situation. Students need to be able to discharge their debt, which will put risk calculus back into the equation. STEM degrees, graduation rates, degree value, and student academic performance will be directly correlated with risk. Under these changes, a student with so-so academics going to an expensive school for art history won't work anymore. STEM degrees at local community colleges will be affordable and abundant. That's what the country needs rather than a system that buys fancy academic buildings. Our ancestors could make do with learning in decrepit old buildings. They didn't have staycation amenities. They turned that into incredible productive value and didn't go into debt. That's what we need again. If we want to continue to provide access as a matter of policy, then we should make universities meet strict standards on budget and degree cost to offer non-dischargeable loans to students. Then universities can decide whether they want to meet those eligibility requirements or continue inflating their own costs. The market will fix itself.

toomuchtodo 2y ago
People go into debt for the credential because employers require the credential. If employers provided training and did not require a degree, you’d see demand evaporate. Instead, they require a degree the role may not even need, which externalizes the cost onto the student and future candidate (who then goes into debt as a gamble to increase future lifetime earnings). A college degree was marketed as a ticket to a secure, middle class life, and that marketing has been seen through. Why US Men Think College Isn’t Worth It Anymore- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43788914 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43788914 - April 2025 Pew Reseach: Is College Worth It? - https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2024/05/23/is-college-worth-it-2/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2024/05/23/is-coll... - May 23rd, 2024 There is some progress here on companies removing the credential requirement, and the situation should improve as labor supply continues to decline into the future due to structural demographics (forcing employers to loosen hiring requirements). Learn a trade, get a CDL (~$5k), etc.
- elteto 2y ago
  Corporations can (and should) provide training for tradespeople, but you can't do the same for specialized degrees, like engineering. To train engineers it takes 4-5 years of academic + project work, which is what colleges and universities provide. There's nothing wrong with degrees, what we have in the US is a broken aid system with perverse incentives around the financing of such degrees. Don't conflate one thing with the other.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    I don't disagree that there is a legit need for engineering degree holding workers, but, how many folks in the US are getting engineering degrees just to check a box to get a job that requires a degree? This is a distinct issue versus dysfunctional funding of necessary degree paths.
    - ghostpepper 2y ago
      I may just be misunderstanding what you're saying but if you're just getting a degree to tick a box that says "Must have a degree" why would you pick engineering? What are the jobs that "require" an engineering degree but don't actually require any engineering knowledge?
      - toomuchtodo 2y ago
        Sorry for any misunderstanding. To be clear, there are two problems: 1. Students going into debt to get a degree simply because a job req calls for it, but potentially doesn't use the degree. Think "business administration" amongst others. The "Bachelor's Checkbox" on an application if you will. The debt they incur is the cost to increase their white collar lottery odds. 2. Degrees in domains that are crucial for the work to be done, but the financing model is fucked. Engineering, MD, etc. Both require solving for, but in this context, I am addressing the former.
tonetegeatinst 2y ago
I got a stem degree via community college, but had to goto a state college and get a bachelor in the same degree for employers to even consider hiring me or being able to move up in a company. I have a associates in science in cyber security, most credits didn't transfer to a bachelor's of science in cybwrsecurity program despite both being public schools and not private colleges. Its set my education back years all because most jobs demand a bachelor's and certifications.
musicale 2y ago
It is also hard to discharge student loan debt in bankruptcy.
cyanydeez 2y ago
Isn't the problem that education is a public good and therefore shouldn't cost anything special, and a system to sort prospective students into correct tiers based on honest merits would be better, but because rich people, it's what we have? Seems like you haven't even gone down the path most of the world operates on and just assume the system as it exists can't be modified.
- echelon 2y ago
  > Isn't the problem that education is a public good and therefore shouldn't cost anything special If your solution is to make all higher education free and turn this into yet another tax, then I have to ask where that money is going to come from. There's already tremendous inefficiency and malinvestment in higher education. Is it really worth diverting productive capital and private money into a system that is bloated? The frequently suggested fix is to remove the crutches and allow the system to fail, ie. make student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy. Risk has been foreign to the equation since the student loan system was established. With the reintroduction of risk, the system will balance itself. People will stop taking expensive degree programs with low ROI because there won't be any loans available. No lender will write loans for bad degree programs. Additionally, when the universities are forced to stop competing on what amenities they offer, they can lower their tuitions to a point where some form of public subsidy could be possible and sustainable. But in no way should we be spending tax dollars on present-day college tuition costs. Those costs need to drop substantially. The US would add another 0.5 - 0.7 trillion dollars to the deficit if we funded all universities at their present day costs. That would sink the entire ship. It'd be insane to add that to our budget.
  - cyanydeez 2y ago
    The money is going to come from the same place the money already comes from. I don't understand, and won't follow further someone who doesn't understand how public good works. Sorry you wasted your time.

toomuchtodo 2y ago

People go into debt for the credential because employers require the credential. If employers provided training and did not require a degree, you’d see demand evaporate. Instead, they require a degree the role may not even need, which externalizes the cost onto the student and future candidate (who then goes into debt as a gamble to increase future lifetime earnings). A college degree was marketed as a ticket to a secure, middle class life, and that marketing has been seen through. Why US Men Think College Isn’t Worth It Anymore- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43788914 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43788914 - April 2025 Pew Reseach: Is College Worth It? - https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2024/05/23/is-college-worth-it-2/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2024/05/23/is-coll... - May 23rd, 2024 There is some progress here on companies removing the credential requirement, and the situation should improve as labor supply continues to decline into the future due to structural demographics (forcing employers to loosen hiring requirements). Learn a trade, get a CDL (~$5k), etc.

elteto 2y ago
Corporations can (and should) provide training for tradespeople, but you can't do the same for specialized degrees, like engineering. To train engineers it takes 4-5 years of academic + project work, which is what colleges and universities provide. There's nothing wrong with degrees, what we have in the US is a broken aid system with perverse incentives around the financing of such degrees. Don't conflate one thing with the other.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  I don't disagree that there is a legit need for engineering degree holding workers, but, how many folks in the US are getting engineering degrees just to check a box to get a job that requires a degree? This is a distinct issue versus dysfunctional funding of necessary degree paths.
  - ghostpepper 2y ago
    I may just be misunderstanding what you're saying but if you're just getting a degree to tick a box that says "Must have a degree" why would you pick engineering? What are the jobs that "require" an engineering degree but don't actually require any engineering knowledge?
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      Sorry for any misunderstanding. To be clear, there are two problems: 1. Students going into debt to get a degree simply because a job req calls for it, but potentially doesn't use the degree. Think "business administration" amongst others. The "Bachelor's Checkbox" on an application if you will. The debt they incur is the cost to increase their white collar lottery odds. 2. Degrees in domains that are crucial for the work to be done, but the financing model is fucked. Engineering, MD, etc. Both require solving for, but in this context, I am addressing the former.

tonetegeatinst 2y ago

I got a stem degree via community college, but had to goto a state college and get a bachelor in the same degree for employers to even consider hiring me or being able to move up in a company. I have a associates in science in cyber security, most credits didn't transfer to a bachelor's of science in cybwrsecurity program despite both being public schools and not private colleges. Its set my education back years all because most jobs demand a bachelor's and certifications.

musicale 2y ago

It is also hard to discharge student loan debt in bankruptcy.

cyanydeez 2y ago

Isn't the problem that education is a public good and therefore shouldn't cost anything special, and a system to sort prospective students into correct tiers based on honest merits would be better, but because rich people, it's what we have? Seems like you haven't even gone down the path most of the world operates on and just assume the system as it exists can't be modified.

echelon 2y ago
> Isn't the problem that education is a public good and therefore shouldn't cost anything special If your solution is to make all higher education free and turn this into yet another tax, then I have to ask where that money is going to come from. There's already tremendous inefficiency and malinvestment in higher education. Is it really worth diverting productive capital and private money into a system that is bloated? The frequently suggested fix is to remove the crutches and allow the system to fail, ie. make student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy. Risk has been foreign to the equation since the student loan system was established. With the reintroduction of risk, the system will balance itself. People will stop taking expensive degree programs with low ROI because there won't be any loans available. No lender will write loans for bad degree programs. Additionally, when the universities are forced to stop competing on what amenities they offer, they can lower their tuitions to a point where some form of public subsidy could be possible and sustainable. But in no way should we be spending tax dollars on present-day college tuition costs. Those costs need to drop substantially. The US would add another 0.5 - 0.7 trillion dollars to the deficit if we funded all universities at their present day costs. That would sink the entire ship. It'd be insane to add that to our budget.
- cyanydeez 2y ago
  The money is going to come from the same place the money already comes from. I don't understand, and won't follow further someone who doesn't understand how public good works. Sorry you wasted your time.