4 ms·

I agree, it sucks to be lumped in. What's your proposed solution?

by winwang 1y ago

criddell 1y ago
Allow the use of AIs.
gonzo41 1y ago
Hand written coding. The wheel comes full circle.
- morkalork 1y ago
  Computers with no internet access and nothing but the compiler chain and text documentation installed. Coding like it's 1980s again!
  - PontifexMinimus 1y ago
    Which is in any case a better test of the core of coding, which is about figuring out algorithms and data structures, not writing glue code to connect various APIs together.
    - Jtsummers 1y ago
      This challenge, as described from some of the linked pages, is exactly a challenge on algorithms and data structures not on gluing APIs together. The problem with that is that it's exactly the kind of challenge that LLMs do well at because there's a glut of material to train on. The challenge is figuring out how to provide a novice (high school students) with a skill appropriate challenge to assess them on that is also not trivially solved by the use of an LLM, and you likely can't. Or you go the IT route and restrict what's available on and from the computers (see my comment about how ACM and IEEE contests used to do things, they may still run that way but I'm uninvolved so don't know).
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
  - skeeter2020 1y ago
    can I have a printed, spiral-bound manual instead? I really miss 80's documentation: quality, complete, and quirky-fun
    - Darmani 1y ago
      That is a thing in the ACM-ICPC. Typically competitors would come in with printouts of times they've implemented a tricky algorithm like the Hungarian Algorithm or the Blossom Algorithm in the past, so that having it would help jog their memory and let them be constrained only by typing speed once they've figured out how to adapt it to their problem. It was referred to as "book code."
  - leereeves 1y ago
    > Computers with no internet access and nothing but the compiler chain and text documentation installed. Coding like it's 1980s again! I love this comment because in 20 years coding with no AI will be "coding like it's 2020 again".
- tenpies 1y ago
  Just the participant, a tall deck of blank IBM punch cards, and a punch. None of that fancy punch card machinery either. Return to tradition[1]. [1] https://www.ibm.com/history/punched-card https://www.ibm.com/history/punched-card
  - ohgr 1y ago
    As a notorious bastard I used to run C# code tests by giving someone a flattened windows 7 with the .net SDK installed and nothing else. Also no network connection. How the potential engineer dealt with it was interesting. We had a couple of people shrug it off and do it in notepad and csc quite happily. They were of course hired.
StefanBatory 1y ago
That's why I said it's not like I don't get it. There's no solution at this point for this year.
tmpz22 1y ago
It's a solved problem. Look at medical schools, we're not pumping out chatgpt doctors because we have actual in-person test proctoring that includes checking biometrics, taking photographs of the individual for posterity, oral examinations, etc. Right now educational institutions are facing budget shortfalls and responding by expanding remote education opportunities while compromising the quality of education not just because of cheating but because often the content and social circumstances are inferior. We are making short term decisions as an easy-fix to budget issues that will have substantial long-term consequences. The result is that the value of an American college degree is plummeting (ironically while costs still are increasing). This is part of the reason GenZ are starting to revolt against various institutions - they are the ones being screwed the most. The right path forward is acknowledging this insanity in the budgeting process, employment process, and loan markets. We won't do that though because it means admitting how much has been fucked up - institutions will double down and triple down in the face of DOGE threats.
- _aavaa_ 1y ago
  > Look at medical schools Medical schools don’t take in 18 year olds in North America. They can have more in depth entrance exams since the people come in are more mature. > This is the reason GenZ Or perhaps it may be the misinformation and rhetoric being used to inflame tried and true anti-intellectual sentiments.
  - MegaButts 1y ago
    > Medical schools don’t take in 18 year olds in North America. They can have more in depth entrance exams since the people come in are more mature. Why do you need to be more mature to take an exam? We're not talking about toddlers - many (most?) of them are legal adults.
    - _aavaa_ 1y ago
      Legally yes, but if you’d had to interact with large numbers of those entering university for the first time you’d know they very much are not mentally adults yet. All of which is beside the point since this conversation is focusing on the most prestigious universities around. Most universities and colleges in North America don’t need such exams since they already accept basically anyone who applies.
EA-3167 1y ago
Sue the university on the grounds that this was a reasonably foreseeable event with proven solutions, i.e. properly proctored, in-person testing. "We're too cheap to do it" isn't an excuse.
- vlovich123 1y ago
  The competitions are very useful both in terms of providing students the ability to demonstrate ability that isn't visible within a school curriculum (these students are way more advanced) and motivating the students with something to work towards & train on. I have done this competition (I think) and what your suggesting just is not reasonable. This is a distributed competition administered locally on a volunteer basis. This isn't some formalized test & trying to get Waterloo to pay for all the local proctors would result in this competition shutting down which would be net not good. I don't have insight into how the competition has changed in the 20 years since I took it so I don't know why they don't have local proctors or lost faith in them. Maybe COVID-era adaptations? Honestly, I think the better solution is to adjust the difficulty to be AI-proof but it may be hard to do so at this level of academia.
  - EA-3167 1y ago
    If it can't work as is, and it can't work in a way that removes cheating (which the university feels invalidates the results for all participants) then it can't work. Getting a load of students to prepare and participate only to pull the rug out from under them isn't acceptable. That's a waste of their limited time and energy during a critical period of their lives.
- gpm 1y ago
  What percentage of the $10 (CAD, tax free) entrance fee do you think the court should award in damages?
  - EA-3167 1y ago
    You're describing one small part of the family of damages (in the legal sense), and that isn't how common law works. To draw from the rich vocabulary of HN, think of the opportunity cost imposed by the time wasted on preparation and the test itself, that also has value beyond the entrance fee. Putting that aside, you don't just sue for money, you can sue for different outcomes and injunctive relief. For example you could sue to have the results released as planned.
Jtsummers 1y ago
For ACM and IEEE programming contests they used to be conducted "offline". Not sure how they're done these days, but participants would have a computer connected to a LAN and shared resources for themselves and their team (one or more computers depending on the particular format). Put students in a room with a disconnected computer and an IDE or a computer connected only to a LAN. Submissions can be handled either with a local contest server or sneaker net to the one networked computer managed by the proctor. It's also possible to severely lock down the network connectivity of the computers so they cannot access the internet at large but only the contest servers during the competition if there is an online submission required.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]

I agree, it sucks to be lumped in. What's your proposed solution?

criddell 1y ago

Allow the use of AIs.

gonzo41 1y ago

Hand written coding. The wheel comes full circle.

morkalork 1y ago
Computers with no internet access and nothing but the compiler chain and text documentation installed. Coding like it's 1980s again!
- PontifexMinimus 1y ago
  Which is in any case a better test of the core of coding, which is about figuring out algorithms and data structures, not writing glue code to connect various APIs together.
  - Jtsummers 1y ago
    This challenge, as described from some of the linked pages, is exactly a challenge on algorithms and data structures not on gluing APIs together. The problem with that is that it's exactly the kind of challenge that LLMs do well at because there's a glut of material to train on. The challenge is figuring out how to provide a novice (high school students) with a skill appropriate challenge to assess them on that is also not trivially solved by the use of an LLM, and you likely can't. Or you go the IT route and restrict what's available on and from the computers (see my comment about how ACM and IEEE contests used to do things, they may still run that way but I'm uninvolved so don't know).
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
- skeeter2020 1y ago
  can I have a printed, spiral-bound manual instead? I really miss 80's documentation: quality, complete, and quirky-fun
  - Darmani 1y ago
    That is a thing in the ACM-ICPC. Typically competitors would come in with printouts of times they've implemented a tricky algorithm like the Hungarian Algorithm or the Blossom Algorithm in the past, so that having it would help jog their memory and let them be constrained only by typing speed once they've figured out how to adapt it to their problem. It was referred to as "book code."
- leereeves 1y ago
  > Computers with no internet access and nothing but the compiler chain and text documentation installed. Coding like it's 1980s again! I love this comment because in 20 years coding with no AI will be "coding like it's 2020 again".
tenpies 1y ago
Just the participant, a tall deck of blank IBM punch cards, and a punch. None of that fancy punch card machinery either. Return to tradition[1]. [1] https://www.ibm.com/history/punched-card https://www.ibm.com/history/punched-card
- ohgr 1y ago
  As a notorious bastard I used to run C# code tests by giving someone a flattened windows 7 with the .net SDK installed and nothing else. Also no network connection. How the potential engineer dealt with it was interesting. We had a couple of people shrug it off and do it in notepad and csc quite happily. They were of course hired.

StefanBatory 1y ago

That's why I said it's not like I don't get it. There's no solution at this point for this year.

tmpz22 1y ago

It's a solved problem. Look at medical schools, we're not pumping out chatgpt doctors because we have actual in-person test proctoring that includes checking biometrics, taking photographs of the individual for posterity, oral examinations, etc. Right now educational institutions are facing budget shortfalls and responding by expanding remote education opportunities while compromising the quality of education not just because of cheating but because often the content and social circumstances are inferior. We are making short term decisions as an easy-fix to budget issues that will have substantial long-term consequences. The result is that the value of an American college degree is plummeting (ironically while costs still are increasing). This is part of the reason GenZ are starting to revolt against various institutions - they are the ones being screwed the most. The right path forward is acknowledging this insanity in the budgeting process, employment process, and loan markets. We won't do that though because it means admitting how much has been fucked up - institutions will double down and triple down in the face of DOGE threats.

_aavaa_ 1y ago
> Look at medical schools Medical schools don’t take in 18 year olds in North America. They can have more in depth entrance exams since the people come in are more mature. > This is the reason GenZ Or perhaps it may be the misinformation and rhetoric being used to inflame tried and true anti-intellectual sentiments.
- MegaButts 1y ago
  > Medical schools don’t take in 18 year olds in North America. They can have more in depth entrance exams since the people come in are more mature. Why do you need to be more mature to take an exam? We're not talking about toddlers - many (most?) of them are legal adults.
  - _aavaa_ 1y ago
    Legally yes, but if you’d had to interact with large numbers of those entering university for the first time you’d know they very much are not mentally adults yet. All of which is beside the point since this conversation is focusing on the most prestigious universities around. Most universities and colleges in North America don’t need such exams since they already accept basically anyone who applies.

EA-3167 1y ago

Sue the university on the grounds that this was a reasonably foreseeable event with proven solutions, i.e. properly proctored, in-person testing. "We're too cheap to do it" isn't an excuse.

vlovich123 1y ago
The competitions are very useful both in terms of providing students the ability to demonstrate ability that isn't visible within a school curriculum (these students are way more advanced) and motivating the students with something to work towards & train on. I have done this competition (I think) and what your suggesting just is not reasonable. This is a distributed competition administered locally on a volunteer basis. This isn't some formalized test & trying to get Waterloo to pay for all the local proctors would result in this competition shutting down which would be net not good. I don't have insight into how the competition has changed in the 20 years since I took it so I don't know why they don't have local proctors or lost faith in them. Maybe COVID-era adaptations? Honestly, I think the better solution is to adjust the difficulty to be AI-proof but it may be hard to do so at this level of academia.
- EA-3167 1y ago
  If it can't work as is, and it can't work in a way that removes cheating (which the university feels invalidates the results for all participants) then it can't work. Getting a load of students to prepare and participate only to pull the rug out from under them isn't acceptable. That's a waste of their limited time and energy during a critical period of their lives.
gpm 1y ago
What percentage of the $10 (CAD, tax free) entrance fee do you think the court should award in damages?
- EA-3167 1y ago
  You're describing one small part of the family of damages (in the legal sense), and that isn't how common law works. To draw from the rich vocabulary of HN, think of the opportunity cost imposed by the time wasted on preparation and the test itself, that also has value beyond the entrance fee. Putting that aside, you don't just sue for money, you can sue for different outcomes and injunctive relief. For example you could sue to have the results released as planned.

Jtsummers 1y ago

For ACM and IEEE programming contests they used to be conducted "offline". Not sure how they're done these days, but participants would have a computer connected to a LAN and shared resources for themselves and their team (one or more computers depending on the particular format). Put students in a room with a disconnected computer and an IDE or a computer connected only to a LAN. Submissions can be handled either with a local contest server or sneaker net to the one networked computer managed by the proctor. It's also possible to severely lock down the network connectivity of the computers so they cannot access the internet at large but only the contest servers during the competition if there is an online submission required.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]