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From what research I've seen, the phrasing here should be that non-citizens were deported and chose to bring their US citizen children with them. The children t
by djoldman 2y ago
From what research I've seen, the phrasing here should be that non-citizens were deported and chose to bring their US citizen children with them. The children themselves were not deported.
This in no way excuses any of the other issues like not allowing contact with legal advocates / attorneys.
- nessbot 2y agoYou got a source for that? I've hear otherwise about some of the parent's decisions for their US citizen children.
- evv555 2y agoYou got a source for that?
- rsfern 2y agoThe habeas petition for VMS (the two year old) indicates the father (who was not detained at the time of the filing) transferred provisional custody rights to a US citizen relative, and that communications with the mother (who was removed along with their US citizen child) were cut off when he tried to share their lawyers contact info PDF: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.lawd.210781/gov.uscourts.lawd.210781.1.0.pdf https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.lawd.21...
- lostdog 2y agoICE is supposed to keep records, and the courts are supposed to create a transparent record in the case of a dispute. But ICE hid the evidence and prevented the courts from looking into it.
- afavour 2y agoDifficult to describe them as choosing to do anything: > ICE held the families incommunicado, refusing or failing to respond to multiple attempts by attorneys and family members to contact them. In one instance, a mother was granted less than one minute on the phone before the call was abruptly terminated when her spouse tried to provide legal counsel’s phone number. What would they do, leave their child in an ICE facility and hope that somehow word gets back to family to go get them?
- gpm 2y agoThey would transfer custody to an individual who was allowed to remain in the US. This had been organized in the case of at least one of the US citizens deported (expelled?) here.
- Volundr 2y agoHow do you arrange this when not allowed to speak with anyone?
- gpm 2y agoThe mother and child were in custody, the father was not, and was prompt in acquiring legal counsel, arranging this, and suing, leading to exceptionally clear circumstances in this case. This is the docket for the lawsuit: https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69940863/v-m-l-v-harper/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69940863/v-m-l-v-harper... The mother was also technically able to speak with the father, though monitored, for less than a minute, and they were interrupted when the father attempted to give a number for the attorney to the mother. To be clear, I'm not defending any of ICEs actions here, I'm saying that they kidnapped this child who had arrangements made to remain in the US despite ICEs best (also almost certainly illegal) attempts to prevent that from happening.
- op00to 2y agoYou do seem to be defending the actions by asserting that it was the parents decision rather than an action forced by ICE.
- gpm 2y agoI don't see how you come to that conclusion. I am arguing by pointing to the most clear and egregious violation of the law and human rights, that isn't meant to excuse any other violations. I am not asserting that ICE followed any of the parents decisions, so I don't see that I could have possibly accidentally implied that ICEs actions were ok because they made the parents make an impossible choice and then followed it.
- miltonlost 2y agoOh wow, what a choice! Imagine, having a gun to your head and saying "but i had a choice!" In no way can you say that these people, given no legal advocates, chose to bring their children, or at least freely chose.
- koolba 2y agoBeing eventually forced to decide whether to leave your child behind or take them with you out of the USA is a direct consequence of the choice to illegally enter the country. Are you suggesting we never deport parents under any circumstance? Having a citizen child is not some get-out-deportation-free card.
- exe34 2y agoDid a judge rule on this alleged "illegally"? Elon Musk also entered the country illegally to work by pretending to be a student, and somehow he got given the keys to the treasury.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- paulryanrogers 2y agoNo one is saying parents cannot be deported. Rather that ICE clearly engineered the circumstances to ensure the child and mother were deported without any practical opportunity for the child to stay.
- lokar 2y agoEntering the US without permission is a civil offense, not a crime in the way most people think of them.
- didgeoridoo 2y agoYou’re thinking of visa overstay (a civil offense). Unauthorized entry is a criminal misdemeanor. Re-entry after deportation rises to a felony.
- sfasdfasd 2y ago[flagged]
- miltonlost 2y agoThis is less accurate. It erases the US citizenship of the children by being born here with the 14th Amendment, and subtly implies that they AREN'T citizens and are just "U.S.-Born" as if the 14th Amendment didn't apply (like Trump wants).
- sfasdfasd 2y ago"U.S Born" == "U.S Citizenship" would be the default assumption of any rational, thinking person. You can add more words to say the same thing but it only ends up being annoying.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- nullstyle 2y ago> "U.S Born" == "U.S Citizenship" would be the default assumption of any rational, thinking person Not in trump’s america, not if they have their way, and this nonsense wordplay is part of it. Look at the statements around a third term; those arent jokes
- kleton 2y agoLess than half the population of the world live in birthright citizenship countries. Such countries as all of Eurasia except Pakistan, and all but a handful of African countries. Do those countries not have rational thinking people?
- SauciestGNU 2y agoYou're missing the point here. In the United States, the context of this discussion, birthright citizenship has been the law of the land for generations. It would be abnormal for someone in this context to think someone born in the US isn't a citizen. The right wing wants this to change, but it has not as of yet.
- ajross 2y ago> From what research I've seen, the phrasing here should be that non-citizens were deported and chose to bring their US citizen children with them. The children themselves were not deported. That seems deliberately Orwellian. What's the "not deported" scenario you're imagining? Literally abandoning your child in a jail somewhere?! It's not like these folks are in hotels, or have access to phones or family. I mean, yikes. Is that really what we've come to in the discourse on this site? Putting scare quotes around "deported" to pretend that it's only "other issues" that are problems?
- ModernMech 2y agoNot ironically, yes, that's where we are. I remember when we would say such things about a school of children being gunned down. "Really?? That's where we are now as a society? How did we let this happen?" We let it happen by not saying "enough" when the last thing happened. If a school of kids gets gunned down and a society lets that slide, that society becomes one more tolerant of violence against children. We said we were powerless to stop that, so here we are now, bringing violence against children as a matter of federal policy.
- eastbound 2y ago[flagged]
- ajross 2y ago> And she was given the choice to get separated or keep the child. Representing that as a "choice" is precisely the Orwellian part. I'm guessing you don't have kids.
- eastbound 2y agoYou’re taking the rest of the world hostage with the child. The crime was that she was allowed here in the first place, whether by the people who made her believe it was possible, or by her breaking the laws as the act of entry in the country.
- tomrod 2y agoThis is not accurate, though I have found that people who steep in rightwing propaganda tend to repeat these type of talking points. The Rawlsian veil ethic applies here. EDIT: RE - the knee-jerk downvotes. I appreciate that people pointing out authoritarianism can be painful if you are embracing it. Cognitive dissonance is never a fun thing to work through, and having done it a few times I sympathize with the struggles you face or may be facing.
- mariodiana 2y agoI'm not going to downvote you. But Rawls never applies. Rawls is a big scam. At root, it is relativism wrapped up in the august raiment of state-of-nature social contract theory, whatever his protests to the contrary; and the relativism in this case is what "feels right" to him and his fancy neighbors living in Cambridge.
- tomrod 2y agoRawls is just an extension of the golden rule, and anyone who is against treating others how they themselves would wish to be treated is probably someone who shouldn't have authority over others.
- gpm 2y agoIn at least one of the cases here: The father explicitly did not want the child deported with the mother, had informed ICE of that, and initiated legal proceedings to that effect [1]. The mother and US citizen child were held largely incommunicado. They were not given access to a lawyer, and communication with the father was monitored, and upon the father attempting to give them the phone number for an attorney the phone was taken from the mother. Then promptly put on a flight out of the country When a judge attempted to contact the mother, while the mother and child were still in US custody: The US did not respond for an hour presumably so that it could remove the mother and child from US custody prior to responding. > The Government contends that this is all okay because the mother wishes that the child be deported with her. But the Court doesn’t know that. [2] And that's a quote from the Trump appointed very Trump leaning [3] judge. All actual evidence we have here is that the child was intentionally deported (expelled?) against the parents wishes. Certainly against one of the parents wishes. [1] https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.lawd.210781/gov.uscourts.lawd.210781.1.0.pdf https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.lawd.21... [2] https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.lawd.210781/gov.uscourts.lawd.210781.8.0.pdf https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.lawd.21... [3] See prior rulings: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_A._Doughty#Notable_rulings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_A._Doughty#Notable_rulin...
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- chasd00 2y agoA mother’s wish, written/formal or not, for her child will always override that of a father. Fair or not, that’s what happens in the US courts.
- gpm 2y agoActually what happened in the US court here is the US court attempted to intercede while the mother and child were still in US custody and ICE ignored the court until they had successfully removed the mother and child from US custody. As a result the court never got to learn the mothers wishes at all. (Also not true, but that's besides the point)
- rsfern 2y agoOne thing I don’t understand is how this is even a choice the parents have the legal right to make, assuming their US citizen children do not have passports (I don’t know if the answer to that is publicly known). Can a child legally be taken out of the country without a passport and some kind of verifications?
- pessimizer 2y agoI think the US government seizing the birthright citizen children of undocumented immigrant parents is an extreme position.
- rsfern 2y agoThat’s a strawman argument that I would never advocate, and completely ignores my question. Alternatives include arranging legal custody for the child and to stay in the US with a relative (as one family was attempting), or finding a legal way for them to leave the country with their parents. Instead, it seems the government is rushing to illegally remove these children before the courts can intervene
- exe34 2y ago> it seems the government is rushing to illegally That's the last 4 months really.
- bee_rider 2y agoWhat’s the non-extreme option, if the plan is to kick out the non-citizen parents of US citizen children?
- paulryanrogers 2y agoDelay deporting the non-citizen parent at least until the citizen children have reasonable accomodations to remain in the country? "The plan" isn't sacred. Humans rights are sacred.
- s1artibartfast 2y agoShould it be removed for the USC children? Can they return freely without visa?
- tailefer 2y agoAnd I suppose Sophie had a choice too. The actions by ICE in this and other cases are beyond defensible. If they have a case, let it be heard in open court with adequate counsel. Stop playing the silly reindeer games with people's lives. That would be one way to make America great again.
- jmull 2y agoYou are detained and a guard brandishing a machete presents you with a choice: he’ll either cut off your right hand, or cut off your left. Being right handed, you choose your left, and he lops it off. Was it really your choice to have your left hand cut off?
- tomrod 2y agoAye. BATNA (best alternative to negotiated agreement) is a framework to evaluate this with.
- gradus_ad 2y ago[flagged]
- freen 2y agoI seriously doubt you are of sufficient “in group” status to avoid the gulag. I hope that it is never decided that you are a terrorist/enemy combatant/whatever and shipped off without due process to an American concentration camp. (Auschvits wasn’t in Germany either). Oh, you are a citizen? “Home Grown” so to speak? Trump explicitly said that he needs five more concentration camps in El Salvador just for people like you.
- tomrod 2y agoThe rule of law requires due process and following court orders. Declaring a fake 'invasion' and implementing authoritarianism under the guise of emergency powers was already done in Rome, and decidedly is not the rule of law.
- wat10000 2y agoWe don’t consistently enforce speed limits but the rule of law held up fine. Why does this have to be enforced absolutely?
- darksaints 2y agoI sincerely hope people like you get sent to a Salvadoran torture gulag the next time you drive over the speed limit. Because we absolutely understand no circumstances can afford a breakdown in the rule of law.
- Der_Einzige 2y agoI’m so tired of how when fascists operate in the open, the attempt to throw back their rhetoric to them is always perceived as “weak”, “beta”, and incompetent from the public at large. Feels like some SCP object of right wing reaction exists in this country. There’s never any kind of “extreme” movement designed to stamp this shit out in the USA. It ends up being kids wearing red who have never done pushups or other hard exercise before, mixed with a healthy dose of spooks making absolutely sure that these organizations never gain any real power. A whole lot of authoritarian bootlickers in this thread who are ready to sell out their countrymen to CECOT themselves deserve to spend some time in a torture prison like that - because there is nothing else in this world that will convince them of the utter inhumanity of such a place. But you know, “so much for the tolerant left” and all that. Fuck this stupid, tyrannical, authoritarian, reality.
- ridgeguy 2y agoThere are more egregious cases, of course. https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/25/us/politics/us-citizen-deported.html?unlocked_article_code=1.Ck8.HCvV.8jXO716z_gqI&smid=url-share https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/25/us/politics/us-citizen-de... A post elsewhere about the details said ICE found the two-year old was unable to 'describe her status in full, intelligible sentences', so deported, even though her father (not deported and not consenting to his child's expulsion) wanted her left with him. From my experience with two-tear olds, I guess ICE was technically correct. edit - typo
- BriggyDwiggs42 2y agoI think that’s the same case. Was that intentional?
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> phrasing here should be that non-citizens were deported and chose to bring their US citizen children with them. The children themselves were not deported This is what ICE alleges. They're a uniquely uncredible witness among government agencies [1][2]. A judge found the father's allegations worthy of meriting "strong suspicion that the Government just deported a U.S. citizen with no meaningful process," an act which is itself illegal [3]. That is far more credible. [1] https://www.aclu.org/court-cases?issue=ice-and-border-patrol-abuses https://www.aclu.org/court-cases?issue=ice-and-border-patrol... [2] https://apnews.com/article/ice-immigration-arrest-trial-contempt-8b35498ddd96ccf1bc3ff772e6ef5106 https://apnews.com/article/ice-immigration-arrest-trial-cont... [3] https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.lawd.210781/gov.uscourts.lawd.210781.8.0.pdf https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.lawd.21...