4 ms·

The phrase "solely one of birthright" suggests the diminishment of the citizenship of certain people. That is not how citizenship works: no one is less of a cit

The phrase "solely one of birthright" suggests the diminishment of the citizenship of certain people. That is not how citizenship works: no one is less of a citizen than anyone else. The most objectionable part here — by far — is not the deportation of the parents, but the deportation of citizens and the lack of due process. The alternative being proposed is that if ICE is going to deport the parents of US citizen children, the parents should be given the opportunity to seek legal counsel regarding how they're going to ensure care for their children.

kadushka 1y ago
no one is less of a citizen than anyone else This is not true - a citizen by birth can become the president, a naturalized citizen cannot.
- bryanrasmussen 1y ago
  that's true, so basically they deported somebody that one day could become President!
  - lawn 1y ago
    They deported someone with (supposedly) more rights than Elon Musk.
- V-eHGsd_ 1y ago
  While true, I believe op was talking about with respect to the protections afforded by the law.
  - threatofrain 1y ago
    While true, one thing OP could be talking about is the spiritualism implied by that rule, and whether it finds catch in the American psychology.
IG_Semmelweiss 1y ago
US hospitals do not have magical pixie dust to grant US citizenship. This is why birthright as a legal concept is a diminishment of citizenship for all those who hold it. Parents pass on the shared history, values, and national culture to their kids. Parents are those who give value to US citizenship. Not coming out of a belly, that happens to be inside a US hospital.
- Erem 1y ago
  US constitution thoughtfully disagrees with you, elevating presence on the land at birth over bloodline wrt citizenship. “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.” -US Constitution, 14th Amendment Quite literally, US hospitals do have that magic pixie dust because they are on the land of this country.
  - IG_Semmelweiss 1y ago
    >> and subject to the jurisdiction thereof Will need to be resolved. Its not a coincidence that Switzerland is the longest-lasting democracy in the world by a factor of 4x, vs USA. Their framers had the foresight to enshrine their communities' common history, values, and culture.... over pixie dust.
    - cycrutchfield 1y ago
      It has been resolved, for over 125 years of precedent. If you don’t know US history, why bother to show your ignorance so visibly?
      - Revanche1367 1y ago
        Ironically, his parents didn’t do a good enough job of passing on the shared history, values, and national culture of the US.
- cycrutchfield 1y ago
chasd00 1y ago
What you’re really saying is you want this family broken up for the rage bait. You want the picture of a child crying for their mother as the plane takes off for the views.
- sixothree 1y ago
  Fairly clear that is not the argument here.
EasyMark 1y ago
I don't think it was meant to devalue their citizenship, but citizenship doesn't trump their safety or need to be with their parents. The parents are going to be deported for being here illegally, would you have the child be separated and put in a foster/community home? Emotions are important but the only pragmatic solution here is to deport all 3, if your nation's policy is deportation for being here illegally. I agree with that policy in general but not with the US policy of Trump of manhandling illegal aliens or their children. Nor do I agree the lawlessness of what they're doing currently by sending off "suspected gang members" without due process to what amount to torture camps in El Salvador.
- lawn 1y ago
  Sentencing children to die as they can't receive proper medical care when deported is not in any way the best solution. Unless of course your lack empathy and de-humanize people by calling them "aliens".
  - EasyMark 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - lawn 1y ago
      The Nazis were also just being pragmatic.
somenameforme 1y ago
In this case it's clear that the children were not literally deported. The parents were given the choice of taking their children with them, or leaving them with social services, and they did what any half decent parent would do. So they ended up given a "free flight" on a plane full of people being deported, which blurs the difference - but it's obviously there. The issue is that the parents were not granted access to legal counsel, though that's a consequence of expedited removal [1], which dates back to Clinton. I think this issue mostly emphasizes the highly unpleasant issues that unrestricted bithright citizenship causes. There's a reason literally no other advanced economy, besides Canada, has maintained such a thing. [1] And Canada is probably the outlier there due to being geographically protected from illegal immigration. Even if somebody e.g. boats over to North America, they're going to be much more likely to head towards the US than Canada. I say maintained because it's self evident that birthright citizenship would have been a given in the times before big government, if not only because it couldn't not be a given. But basically everywhere desirable started getting rid of it once it started being abused. The entry on Ireland, the last country in Europe to eliminate unrestricted birthright citizenship, is interesting: --- On 1 January 2005, the law was amended to require that at least one of the parents be an Irish citizen; a British citizen; a resident with a permanent right to reside in Ireland or in Northern Ireland; or a legal resident residing three of the last four years in the country (excluding students and asylum seekers) (see Irish nationality law).[64] The amendment was prompted by the case of Man Chen, a Chinese woman living in mainland United Kingdom who traveled to Belfast (Northern Ireland, part of the UK) to give birth in order to benefit from the previous rule whereby anyone born on any part of the island of Ireland was automatically granted Irish citizenship. The Chinese parents used their daughter's Irish (and thereby European Union) citizenship to obtain permanent residence in the UK as parents of a dependent EU citizen. Ireland was the last country in Europe to abolish unrestricted jus soli. (see Irish nationality law).[107] --- [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expedited_removal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expedited_removal [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli# https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli#

kadushka 1y ago

no one is less of a citizen than anyone else This is not true - a citizen by birth can become the president, a naturalized citizen cannot.

bryanrasmussen 1y ago
that's true, so basically they deported somebody that one day could become President!
- lawn 1y ago
  They deported someone with (supposedly) more rights than Elon Musk.
V-eHGsd_ 1y ago
While true, I believe op was talking about with respect to the protections afforded by the law.
- threatofrain 1y ago
  While true, one thing OP could be talking about is the spiritualism implied by that rule, and whether it finds catch in the American psychology.

IG_Semmelweiss 1y ago

US hospitals do not have magical pixie dust to grant US citizenship. This is why birthright as a legal concept is a diminishment of citizenship for all those who hold it. Parents pass on the shared history, values, and national culture to their kids. Parents are those who give value to US citizenship. Not coming out of a belly, that happens to be inside a US hospital.

Erem 1y ago
US constitution thoughtfully disagrees with you, elevating presence on the land at birth over bloodline wrt citizenship. “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.” -US Constitution, 14th Amendment Quite literally, US hospitals do have that magic pixie dust because they are on the land of this country.
- IG_Semmelweiss 1y ago
  >> and subject to the jurisdiction thereof Will need to be resolved. Its not a coincidence that Switzerland is the longest-lasting democracy in the world by a factor of 4x, vs USA. Their framers had the foresight to enshrine their communities' common history, values, and culture.... over pixie dust.
  - cycrutchfield 1y ago
    It has been resolved, for over 125 years of precedent. If you don’t know US history, why bother to show your ignorance so visibly?
    - Revanche1367 1y ago
      Ironically, his parents didn’t do a good enough job of passing on the shared history, values, and national culture of the US.
cycrutchfield 1y ago

chasd00 1y ago

What you’re really saying is you want this family broken up for the rage bait. You want the picture of a child crying for their mother as the plane takes off for the views.

sixothree 1y ago
Fairly clear that is not the argument here.

EasyMark 1y ago

I don't think it was meant to devalue their citizenship, but citizenship doesn't trump their safety or need to be with their parents. The parents are going to be deported for being here illegally, would you have the child be separated and put in a foster/community home? Emotions are important but the only pragmatic solution here is to deport all 3, if your nation's policy is deportation for being here illegally. I agree with that policy in general but not with the US policy of Trump of manhandling illegal aliens or their children. Nor do I agree the lawlessness of what they're doing currently by sending off "suspected gang members" without due process to what amount to torture camps in El Salvador.

lawn 1y ago
Sentencing children to die as they can't receive proper medical care when deported is not in any way the best solution. Unless of course your lack empathy and de-humanize people by calling them "aliens".
- EasyMark 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - lawn 1y ago
    The Nazis were also just being pragmatic.

somenameforme 1y ago

In this case it's clear that the children were not literally deported. The parents were given the choice of taking their children with them, or leaving them with social services, and they did what any half decent parent would do. So they ended up given a "free flight" on a plane full of people being deported, which blurs the difference - but it's obviously there. The issue is that the parents were not granted access to legal counsel, though that's a consequence of expedited removal [1], which dates back to Clinton. I think this issue mostly emphasizes the highly unpleasant issues that unrestricted bithright citizenship causes. There's a reason literally no other advanced economy, besides Canada, has maintained such a thing. [1] And Canada is probably the outlier there due to being geographically protected from illegal immigration. Even if somebody e.g. boats over to North America, they're going to be much more likely to head towards the US than Canada. I say maintained because it's self evident that birthright citizenship would have been a given in the times before big government, if not only because it couldn't not be a given. But basically everywhere desirable started getting rid of it once it started being abused. The entry on Ireland, the last country in Europe to eliminate unrestricted birthright citizenship, is interesting: --- On 1 January 2005, the law was amended to require that at least one of the parents be an Irish citizen; a British citizen; a resident with a permanent right to reside in Ireland or in Northern Ireland; or a legal resident residing three of the last four years in the country (excluding students and asylum seekers) (see Irish nationality law).[64] The amendment was prompted by the case of Man Chen, a Chinese woman living in mainland United Kingdom who traveled to Belfast (Northern Ireland, part of the UK) to give birth in order to benefit from the previous rule whereby anyone born on any part of the island of Ireland was automatically granted Irish citizenship. The Chinese parents used their daughter's Irish (and thereby European Union) citizenship to obtain permanent residence in the UK as parents of a dependent EU citizen. Ireland was the last country in Europe to abolish unrestricted jus soli. (see Irish nationality law).[107] --- [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expedited_removal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expedited_removal [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli# https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli#