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> Because it's always been happening. I don't like this kind of response because it's basically kind of an assumption, and you don't really give any evidence f

> Because it's always been happening. I don't like this kind of response because it's basically kind of an assumption, and you don't really give any evidence for it. On one hand, sure, abuses by people in positions of power have always happened, so if you're just making a general argument that enforcement authorities abuse power, I mean yeah, human nature. But this article is making some specific points: 1. Those who were deported were given basically zero access to even talk to a lawyer, and that in at least one case a habeas corpus petition was deliberately avoided by deporting the family at 6 AM before courts opened. 2. Multiple US minor citizen children were deported. So, no, without more evidence, I'm not willing to believe that it's just some minor increase of degree. While yes, I'm sure there have been abuses in the past, the current policy seems hellbent on deporting as many people as possible, due process be damned, and that was not the policy in previous years. I'd also highlight that the current President has said, explicitly, that deporting people without due process is his goal: https://truthout.org/articles/we-cannot-give-everyone-a-trial-trump-says-in-post-blasting-the-supreme-court/ https://truthout.org/articles/we-cannot-give-everyone-a-tria... In other words, I don't believe this is just an aberrant, abusive exception to the policy. It very much seems like this is the policy now.

pclmulqdq 2y ago
No, this kind of deportation and treatment of prisoners/detainees has been happening forever. This exact behavior has been happening forever, not just a general idea of malfeasance. The current attention on it smacks of politics in a way that is also very inhuman. Remember the "kids in cages" saga?
- hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
  > No, this kind of deportation and treatment of prisoners/detainees has been happening forever. Another assertion without any justification or data. > Remember the "kids in cages" saga? Yes, of course, and that's the point. There was huge outcry then, and that cruel policy was implemented by the same person responsible for this policy. It doesn't make sense to say "this has been happening forever" and then bring up an example from 2017-2020. We are all well aware of Trump's view on immigration and the rule of law. The whole point is that Trump's policies are a huge aberration from what any other administration, Republican or Democrat, has put forth in the past 50 years.
  - giraffe_lady 2y ago
    I almost completely agree with you here. But it is striking that they didn't need to create any new agencies to do this. All the parts of it were in place. They were in place already for trump to use the first time, and they were still in place when he got back into power. Due process and transparency on border & immigration interactions has been alarmingly bad for a long time now. Has this never happened before, hidden inside this apparatus? I'm not confident of that. This is certainly different in its scale and ferocity. But I see where they are coming from too.
  - margalabargala 2y ago
    Much as I detest the current administration, the parent comment is correct. While things under both Trump administrations did get mildly worse than they were under his Democrat predecessors, they were plenty bad under Obama and Biden as well. You're talking about bringing up examples from 2017-2020; it turns out, plenty of the examples that were brought up back then, were in fact from the Obama years. Example: https://apnews.com/article/a98f26f7c9424b44b7fa927ea1acd4d4 https://apnews.com/article/a98f26f7c9424b44b7fa927ea1acd4d4
    - hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
      Let's look at your own link: > The story featured photos taken by AP’s Ross D. Franklin at a center run by the Customs and Border Protection Agency in Nogales, Arizona. One photo shows two unidentified female detainees sleeping in a holding cell. The caption refers to U.S. efforts to process 47,000 unaccompanied children at the Nogales center and another one in Brownsville, Texas. I don't know how else you're supposed to handle 47,000 unaccompanied children when there simply aren't the facilities to hold them all, e.g. in foster homes. I think that is fundamentally different than deporting US citizens. And yes, when it comes to Trump's first term, I don't really see anything wrong with keeping unaccompanied children in detention centers, at least temporarily. The much bigger issue I had was the specific policy of separating families.
      - margalabargala 2y ago
southernplaces7 2y ago
>I don't like this kind of response because it's basically kind of an assumption, and you don't really give any evidence for it. Whether you like it or not, it has indeed been happening for a long time, and under multiple administrations from either party. If you're interested in the tragedy of it all enough to care, then go look these cases up instead of first accusing someone of lying because they might be smearing a politician that you preferred, and who isn't the current orangutan in the White House. Trump's administration is notably and vocally hostile to illegal immigrants, to migrants and I suspect to immigrants in general, but it's mainly still using the tools and practices that have long since been refined by multiple federal agencies whenever opportunities for heavy-handedness presented themselves. Because it's Trump's administration, and enough of the major media system is unsupportive of him (still, for now), the matter is gaining more attention. This attention is a good thing, but it shouldn't cloud one from considering the possibility that the bureaucratic defects and authoritarian inertia of federal policing exist beyond the confines of a single type of administration.
- yuliyp 2y ago
  I guess the question is how frequent it's been. A big part of Trumpism is taking sketchy practices that used to be exceptional and turning them into standard operating procedure, and then claiming "oh look others did this before" I mean, look at Hillary Clinton's emails, extorting of lawfirms, big tech, etc, his ignoring of court orders, etc. All are things that you can look at and say "he's not the first to do this" and be completely correct, but completely missing the point that he's doing it waay more aggressively.
  - hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
    > extorting of lawfirms When did that happen previously?
  - southernplaces7 2y ago
    I actually mentioned this same worry in a previous comment on this post thread, and I don't think that i'm missing the point about Trump doing certain things in way more aggressive and possibly new ways. It's something that should be cause for lots of worry. However, as I explained above, the deportations of citizens are nothing new and though it's good that they now receive attention, they should be viewed from the wider context of decades of federal overreach and authoritarian practices by certain agencies. my other comment similar to what you mention https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43803664 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43803664

pclmulqdq 2y ago

No, this kind of deportation and treatment of prisoners/detainees has been happening forever. This exact behavior has been happening forever, not just a general idea of malfeasance. The current attention on it smacks of politics in a way that is also very inhuman. Remember the "kids in cages" saga?

hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
> No, this kind of deportation and treatment of prisoners/detainees has been happening forever. Another assertion without any justification or data. > Remember the "kids in cages" saga? Yes, of course, and that's the point. There was huge outcry then, and that cruel policy was implemented by the same person responsible for this policy. It doesn't make sense to say "this has been happening forever" and then bring up an example from 2017-2020. We are all well aware of Trump's view on immigration and the rule of law. The whole point is that Trump's policies are a huge aberration from what any other administration, Republican or Democrat, has put forth in the past 50 years.
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  I almost completely agree with you here. But it is striking that they didn't need to create any new agencies to do this. All the parts of it were in place. They were in place already for trump to use the first time, and they were still in place when he got back into power. Due process and transparency on border & immigration interactions has been alarmingly bad for a long time now. Has this never happened before, hidden inside this apparatus? I'm not confident of that. This is certainly different in its scale and ferocity. But I see where they are coming from too.
- margalabargala 2y ago
  Much as I detest the current administration, the parent comment is correct. While things under both Trump administrations did get mildly worse than they were under his Democrat predecessors, they were plenty bad under Obama and Biden as well. You're talking about bringing up examples from 2017-2020; it turns out, plenty of the examples that were brought up back then, were in fact from the Obama years. Example: https://apnews.com/article/a98f26f7c9424b44b7fa927ea1acd4d4 https://apnews.com/article/a98f26f7c9424b44b7fa927ea1acd4d4
  - hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
    Let's look at your own link: > The story featured photos taken by AP’s Ross D. Franklin at a center run by the Customs and Border Protection Agency in Nogales, Arizona. One photo shows two unidentified female detainees sleeping in a holding cell. The caption refers to U.S. efforts to process 47,000 unaccompanied children at the Nogales center and another one in Brownsville, Texas. I don't know how else you're supposed to handle 47,000 unaccompanied children when there simply aren't the facilities to hold them all, e.g. in foster homes. I think that is fundamentally different than deporting US citizens. And yes, when it comes to Trump's first term, I don't really see anything wrong with keeping unaccompanied children in detention centers, at least temporarily. The much bigger issue I had was the specific policy of separating families.
    - margalabargala 2y ago

southernplaces7 2y ago

>I don't like this kind of response because it's basically kind of an assumption, and you don't really give any evidence for it. Whether you like it or not, it has indeed been happening for a long time, and under multiple administrations from either party. If you're interested in the tragedy of it all enough to care, then go look these cases up instead of first accusing someone of lying because they might be smearing a politician that you preferred, and who isn't the current orangutan in the White House. Trump's administration is notably and vocally hostile to illegal immigrants, to migrants and I suspect to immigrants in general, but it's mainly still using the tools and practices that have long since been refined by multiple federal agencies whenever opportunities for heavy-handedness presented themselves. Because it's Trump's administration, and enough of the major media system is unsupportive of him (still, for now), the matter is gaining more attention. This attention is a good thing, but it shouldn't cloud one from considering the possibility that the bureaucratic defects and authoritarian inertia of federal policing exist beyond the confines of a single type of administration.

yuliyp 2y ago
I guess the question is how frequent it's been. A big part of Trumpism is taking sketchy practices that used to be exceptional and turning them into standard operating procedure, and then claiming "oh look others did this before" I mean, look at Hillary Clinton's emails, extorting of lawfirms, big tech, etc, his ignoring of court orders, etc. All are things that you can look at and say "he's not the first to do this" and be completely correct, but completely missing the point that he's doing it waay more aggressively.
- hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
  > extorting of lawfirms When did that happen previously?
- southernplaces7 2y ago
  I actually mentioned this same worry in a previous comment on this post thread, and I don't think that i'm missing the point about Trump doing certain things in way more aggressive and possibly new ways. It's something that should be cause for lots of worry. However, as I explained above, the deportations of citizens are nothing new and though it's good that they now receive attention, they should be viewed from the wider context of decades of federal overreach and authoritarian practices by certain agencies. my other comment similar to what you mention https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43803664 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43803664