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From 2021 to 2024, the homicide rate in El Salvador decreased by 10 times [1]. Sure, torture is terrible in El Salvador's prison, as it is in Guantánamo's "pris
by BSDobelix 1y ago
From 2021 to 2024, the homicide rate in El Salvador decreased by 10 times [1]. Sure, torture is terrible in El Salvador's prison, as it is in Guantánamo's "prison", but public safety is the number one priority for any government, without safety any other achievement for a country is impossible.
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_El_Salvador https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_El_Salvador
- ForHackernews 1y agoThis is a deeply anti-American, authoritarian sentiment. "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ~ Benjamin Franklin
- lostmsu 1y agoHow would you compare torture to civil war AKA mass murder?
- soganess 1y agoI would reject the comparison as a false dichotomy. The world's political systems can't just be bimodal distribution of ineffectual neolibs and self-styled 'strong man' autocracts.
- lostmsu 1y agoI didn't ask to choose one or the other, therefore there's no dichotomy, therefore there's no false dichotomy.
- ForHackernews 1y agoI don't understand the question either. "Compare" in what way? Both torture and civil war are bad, but they're not similar or analogous. How would you compare child abuse to famine?
- lostmsu 1y agoIn the context of the quote you mentioned.
- BSDobelix 1y ago>This is a deeply anti-American, authoritarian sentiment. "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ~ Benjamin Franklin Are you talking about Guantanamo or El Salvador? Because in El Salvador civilians had neither Liberty (not wander the street without fear) nor Safety (been shot). Also i don't know why El Salvador should use the US or Franklin as a template. However the US still has the Patriot Act, attacked Iraq and gained no Liberty nor Safety out of it.
- monkeyfun 1y agoTo quote you >public safety is the number one priority for any government You blanket-declared that any/all governments have it as their number one priority, with no nuance I might add. Additionally, are you somehow completely unaware that the American government is sending people to that country's worst prison, and that the current president has said he wishes to send American citizens there? This is why American values are at all being referenced here. Nobody thus far in this conversation has been defending gitmo, the patriot act, or the illegal and unjust invasion of Iraq -- and personally I'm against all three. Yet you're creating false equivalencies, ascribing strawman views to others, and mostly avoiding any nuance to such matters as if the country's underlying corruption and dysfunction which enabled such lawless conditions is any better (which it might genuinely be, but such points ought be evidenced and argued, not declared). Instead you've transformed it into something approximating: "now el salvador is safe and everyone is happy, there was no need for liberty or human dignity to be respected then or now." Therein you make yourself out to argue in poor faith.
- BSDobelix 1y ago>You blanket-declared that any/all governments have it as their number one priority, with no nuance I might add. No nuance needed, there is no single country who flourish when people fear every day for their life. Not being murdered is point number one for living beings...again no nuance needed. >Additionally, are you somehow completely unaware that the American government is sending people to that country's worst prison That's a "you" problem, not that of El Salvador. Fix your country without killing a million (for example) Iraqis....and btw stop calling people from other country's "aliens" fkn disgusting! >Instead you've transformed it into something approximating: "now el salvador is safe and everyone is happy, there was no need for liberty or human dignity to be respected then or now." Now you try to make me a Fan Boy of Bukele, and to be honest your framing is childish. There was no space for "human dignity" when gangs ruled the country, now it is at least a unwritten letter.
- x0x0 1y agoPre-Bukele, El Salvador had a breakdown in civil society. Focusing just on homicide, it peaked at 106.3 homicides per 100k in 2015. For context, the "crime wave" America experienced in the 90s peaked at 9.82. The April 24-27 2020 murder spree by gangs killed 77 people in a country of 6.3 million. Again, scaled to America's population, that's killing 4.1k people.
- chrisnight 1y agoCan you explain this quote, because it feels to me like it’s the exact opposite of what standard government practice would dictate? Everyone in a country with government gives up part of their natural liberties in order to form said government and create a civilized (safer) society. That’s the philosophy of government. Perhaps there is something to be argued here about “essential” liberty, or “little temporary” safety, but the core idea seems nonsensical, especially in the context of a person not deserving essential properties of life because of a bad choice.
- mvdtnz 1y agoEl Salvador... is not America.
- exceptione 1y ago> Sure, torture is terrible This is where your program corrupts the stack.
- BSDobelix 1y agoYep, a Government should never do what Criminals/Terrorist do, for example the death sentence, let prisoner being raped by others(unofficial-torture), official-torture in Guantanamo or targeted killings, the US that is.
- aaomidi 1y agoArresting every man in the country would plummet public safety issues in the US. I propose we do this.
- mlsu 1y agoWhy would you trust these statistics? I am very skeptical. The state said that they have solved the gang problem by putting “gangsters” in prisons like this (frequently, without due process as we have seen). I think it’s far more likely that the state in El Salvador is structured like a gang, and the level of violence is the same as it ever was.
- lawn 1y agoSounds exactly like the lies Russia presents.
- BSDobelix 1y ago>Why would you trust these statistics? Because i would think the Associated press makes a more or less professional job: https://apnews.com/article/el-salvador-homicides-gangs-bukele-69384a8705267eaddd18dcd28a53465b#:~:text=Not%20all%20nations%20had%20published,country%20had%20reported%20in%202023. https://apnews.com/article/el-salvador-homicides-gangs-bukel... And the approval rating: ~91% https://www.statista.com/statistics/1264586/approval-salvadoran-president-bukele/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1264586/approval-salvado... But maybe you have better data to counter that?
- Volundr 1y ago> And the approval rating: ~91% In a country where one can be disappeared without recourse into a brutal prison system I have my doubts anyone can meaningfully collect something like an approval rating. I for one would not answer anything but yes to someone asking me if I approved of Bukele if I lived in El Salvador.
- sjoedev 1y agoLook around the world at how many “landslide” election victories are won in places that do not truly have elections. Those with authoritarian intent are notorious for controlling the narrative. All around the world, we are seeing many examples of consolidation of power through populism. Yes, populism is popular by definition. But history is not usually kind to those who consolidate power.
- 1y ago
- nextaccountic 1y agoYou know that Trump administration is paying millions of dollars to imprison some hundred persons there without due process, right? And is looking into expanding this right now: https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/trump-wants-deport-some-us-citizens-el-salvador-2025-04-14/ https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/trump-wants-deport-so...
- BSDobelix 1y ago>You know that Trump administration is paying millions of dollars Billions would be better for El Salvador. But that's a "you" problem, I'm not you.
- ImJamal 1y agoThere is a reason he is the most popular politician. He has over a 90% approval rating. People don't care about the violation of rights of gang members when the alternative is having their family murdered and raped.
- tastyface 1y agoWho the fuck knows how popular an authoritarian politician actually is? > While polling consistently shows that Bukele is quite popular in El Salvador, surveys also show a steady increase in fear of public criticism of the government — to degrees that sometimes match the president’s approval rating. 'There’s a sector of the population that feels better, because it’s true that we perceive more security, we’re no longer afraid of the gangs. Now we’re afraid of the regime,' says Ramirez. 'We see soldiers everywhere, police everywhere, patrol cars, and they’re arresting people.'"
- lawn 1y agoPutin also boasts a very high approval rating.
- AIPedant 1y agoThis is lying with data, giving Bukele credit for sociological factors that predate his administration: Year Rate Total 2015 106.3 6,656 2016 84.1 5,269 2017 83.0 3,962 2018 53.1 3,346 2019 38.0 2,398 [Bukele’s inauguration] 2020 21.2 1,341 2021 18.1 1,147 2022 7.8 495 [start of gang crackdown] 2023 2.4 154 2024 1.9 114 Genuinely infuriating that you crow about the “10x” drop of 1100->150 homicides, rooting for mass incarceration and excusing torture, when homicides were plummeting drastically for nearly a decade before the crackdown. He had nothing to do with the 6,600->3,300 drop, but I guess according to your math that’s merely halving.
- BSDobelix 1y ago2021 18.1 1,147 2022 7.8 495 [start of gang crackdown] 2023 2.4 154 2024 1.9 114 18.1 to 1.9 ...that is a 10x drop.
- AIPedant 1y agoMy point is that's not as significant as the 2x drop that happened in the four years before Bukele was even inaugurated. It's extremely misleading to look at proportions instead of actual numbers - you're lying with data.
- BSDobelix 1y agoI never said something about Bukele, but he made a additional 8x drop right? Also 90% of the people think he makes a good job...basta.
- snapplebobapple 1y agoI have to respectfully disagree. My behaviour and precautions are the same at 6k or 3k homicides a year because both are extremely terrible. Its also way easier to drop that large number because there will be glaringly obvious things to do that will have big effects. That last drop from 18 to 2 will be far harder, this is pretty much universally true for all changes like this. Its also the biggest life improvement for people there. at 18 you still need decent precautions. At 2 you dont really
- black_13 1y ago[dead]
- mmcwilliams 1y agoThis could also be due to the agreements Bukele reached with the MS-13 gang in 2020 [0]. Keep in mind this story came out over 4 years before the prison's existence was politicized in the US. [0] https://elfaro.net/en/202009/el_salvador/24785/Bukele-Has-Been-Negotiating-with-MS-13-for-a-Reduction-in-Homicides-and-Electoral-Support.htm https://elfaro.net/en/202009/el_salvador/24785/Bukele-Has-Be...
- mcv 1y agoI don't think anyone is complaining about putting those gang members in prison. The problem is the torture, not the imprisonment. Torture is simply not acceptable, and creating a society where such sadism is considered acceptable, is not going to give you a peaceful society in the long run.