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That's a bit bizarre, because one would expect a German clone to support the payment variants that are far more popular than credit cards in Germany. EDIT: The

That's a bit bizarre, because one would expect a German clone to support the payment variants that are far more popular than credit cards in Germany. EDIT: The biggest payment variant I was thinking of is direct debit (German: Lastschrift), which is highly convenient. However, wiring the money before getting the goods is also surprisingly popular here. Many people just don't have credit cards. (I do, but I also use some US services like Github which only allow credit card payments.)

rmoriz 14y ago
because nothing works like a credit card. e.g. the popular direct debit payments can be charged back very easily + you just have to search for an valid account number (= fraud). The only payment method that works with recurring and more or less "final/instant" transactions is credit card. So there is no alternative for SaaS or in-app-payments to credit cards (or some direct debit risk mitigation business like paypal)
- white_devil 14y ago
  the popular direct debit payments can be charged back very easily + you just have to search for an valid account number (= fraud). This sounds highly doubtful. Care to explain?
  - rmoriz 14y ago
    in Germany, direct debit transcation currently need an account number and a bank id (BLZ). Or BIC/IBAN (see Wikipedia). There is no validation except some nummerical tests. You can enter the number of some charity or your landlord when doing an order at e.g. Amazon. To deal with that risk, every bank account holder has the right to chargeback transactions without giving a reason. That's why banks typically keep a lot of the money you invoice for a grace period of approx 6-8 weeks. And companies like Otto have their own credit check companies… tl;dr if you instantly deliver items or services, direct debit is not safe.
    - Luc 14y ago
      > There is no validation except some nummerical tests. You can enter the number of some charity or your landlord when doing an order at e.g. Amazon. That is... simply not true. Or perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are saying. There isn't a bank in the EU that will allow you to make a transfer from an account that's not yours (authenticated by whatever means - card readers, digipass, RSA keychain gadgets that display a new number sequence every minute, etc.).
      - rmoriz 14y ago
        direct debit ("Lastschrift") is kind of a reverse transaction. You tell your $own bank to collect the money from an account of your customer at $other bank
        Luc 14y ago
        Oh right, I see, my mistake. I didn't know Amazon used this. In Belgium it's only used (afaik) by 'trusted' institutions, like utility companies. And as a customer you still need to authorize them the first time.
- pgeorgi 14y ago
  Charge back from credit cards works just fine, too. And using it with either banking system gets you in rather serious trouble if you're found to abuse the charge back mechanism. Safe payment methods are advance payment (since there's no reason to allow someone to charge back an order they've explicitely placed at their bank) and cash on delivery (though that's expensive). Which is why some large merchants (eg. Neckermann) restrict payment options to these two for the first transaction.
mhd 14y ago
Yep. Without direct debit, I don't see this working as a single source payment solution, and if you have to add some other API for the missing solutions anyway, this becomes much less enticing.
eddie_the_head 14y ago
I am curious what the alternative but far more popular payment variants in Germany to credit cards are.
- lacerus 14y ago
  Direct debit and instant wire transfer are very big in Germany. Many places, especially supermarkets, do not even accept any credit cards but only debit cards. Our checking accounts have evolved very differently to the US - nobody has been using cheques here for years, even before the internet is was all debit and wires.
  - eddie_the_head 14y ago
    Are the wiring rates low, relative to other countries around Germany or otherwise? How are wire rates for wiring money from say the UK? Who are the primary wire transfer companies in use in Germany? Thank you for your time.
    - aristidb 14y ago
      For individuals, wires are free. Businesses pay a few cents per wire. However, wires need about 2 days to process. That's the rates _from_ Germany to any EU country. So I wouldn't pay for a wire to France, but I don't know what a French person would pay to wire to me. The regulations only say that EU wires need to have the same price as national wires.
      - silvestrov 14y ago
        However, wires need about 2 days to process This is how you pay: the bank earn the interest rate for those two days.
        netrus 14y ago
        That's less than 0.1 percent. I guess most people would accept higher tranfer fees to speed up the process :)
lobster_johnson 14y ago
Does the German direct-debit system work with online payments? We have the same direct-debit system in Norway, called BankAxept, which is managed by a consortium of banks; banks typically issue cards with both Visa and BankAxept built in. However, BankAxept does not work with online payments. A new system, BankAxess, has been launched for online payments, but it has not been widely implemented yet, so most online stores offer payment by Visa/Mastercard. Visa/MC's fees are somewhat exuberant, so most stores also offer COD and payment by wire transfer as alternative options.
- blumentopf 14y ago
  Direct debits as a buyer: You enter your bank account number in the "buy" form of some website and that's it. Direct debits as a seller: You file the direct debit with your bank. This can normally be done online through a web interface or various APIs (e.g. HBCI). The transaction is then processed through the Eurozone's TARGET2 system, i.e. the amount is withdrawn from the buyer's bank account and credited to the seller's bank account. This works in the entire Eurozone and is supposed to not take longer than a day. In practice, some countries take longer. E.g. I've seen payments between Germany and Italy take 3 days, but between Germany and France or within Germany it always takes 1 day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TARGET2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TARGET2
majani 14y ago
The Samwer bros are probably building to sell to Stripe, so they're using credit cards for Paymill to easily integrate into Stripe when that time comes.

rmoriz 14y ago

because nothing works like a credit card. e.g. the popular direct debit payments can be charged back very easily + you just have to search for an valid account number (= fraud). The only payment method that works with recurring and more or less "final/instant" transactions is credit card. So there is no alternative for SaaS or in-app-payments to credit cards (or some direct debit risk mitigation business like paypal)

white_devil 14y ago
the popular direct debit payments can be charged back very easily + you just have to search for an valid account number (= fraud). This sounds highly doubtful. Care to explain?
- rmoriz 14y ago
  in Germany, direct debit transcation currently need an account number and a bank id (BLZ). Or BIC/IBAN (see Wikipedia). There is no validation except some nummerical tests. You can enter the number of some charity or your landlord when doing an order at e.g. Amazon. To deal with that risk, every bank account holder has the right to chargeback transactions without giving a reason. That's why banks typically keep a lot of the money you invoice for a grace period of approx 6-8 weeks. And companies like Otto have their own credit check companies… tl;dr if you instantly deliver items or services, direct debit is not safe.
  - Luc 14y ago
    > There is no validation except some nummerical tests. You can enter the number of some charity or your landlord when doing an order at e.g. Amazon. That is... simply not true. Or perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are saying. There isn't a bank in the EU that will allow you to make a transfer from an account that's not yours (authenticated by whatever means - card readers, digipass, RSA keychain gadgets that display a new number sequence every minute, etc.).
    - rmoriz 14y ago
      direct debit ("Lastschrift") is kind of a reverse transaction. You tell your $own bank to collect the money from an account of your customer at $other bank
      - Luc 14y ago
        Oh right, I see, my mistake. I didn't know Amazon used this. In Belgium it's only used (afaik) by 'trusted' institutions, like utility companies. And as a customer you still need to authorize them the first time.
pgeorgi 14y ago
Charge back from credit cards works just fine, too. And using it with either banking system gets you in rather serious trouble if you're found to abuse the charge back mechanism. Safe payment methods are advance payment (since there's no reason to allow someone to charge back an order they've explicitely placed at their bank) and cash on delivery (though that's expensive). Which is why some large merchants (eg. Neckermann) restrict payment options to these two for the first transaction.

mhd 14y ago

Yep. Without direct debit, I don't see this working as a single source payment solution, and if you have to add some other API for the missing solutions anyway, this becomes much less enticing.

eddie_the_head 14y ago

I am curious what the alternative but far more popular payment variants in Germany to credit cards are.

lacerus 14y ago
Direct debit and instant wire transfer are very big in Germany. Many places, especially supermarkets, do not even accept any credit cards but only debit cards. Our checking accounts have evolved very differently to the US - nobody has been using cheques here for years, even before the internet is was all debit and wires.
- eddie_the_head 14y ago
  Are the wiring rates low, relative to other countries around Germany or otherwise? How are wire rates for wiring money from say the UK? Who are the primary wire transfer companies in use in Germany? Thank you for your time.
  - aristidb 14y ago
    For individuals, wires are free. Businesses pay a few cents per wire. However, wires need about 2 days to process. That's the rates _from_ Germany to any EU country. So I wouldn't pay for a wire to France, but I don't know what a French person would pay to wire to me. The regulations only say that EU wires need to have the same price as national wires.
    - silvestrov 14y ago
      However, wires need about 2 days to process This is how you pay: the bank earn the interest rate for those two days.
      - netrus 14y ago
        That's less than 0.1 percent. I guess most people would accept higher tranfer fees to speed up the process :)

lobster_johnson 14y ago

Does the German direct-debit system work with online payments? We have the same direct-debit system in Norway, called BankAxept, which is managed by a consortium of banks; banks typically issue cards with both Visa and BankAxept built in. However, BankAxept does not work with online payments. A new system, BankAxess, has been launched for online payments, but it has not been widely implemented yet, so most online stores offer payment by Visa/Mastercard. Visa/MC's fees are somewhat exuberant, so most stores also offer COD and payment by wire transfer as alternative options.

blumentopf 14y ago
Direct debits as a buyer: You enter your bank account number in the "buy" form of some website and that's it. Direct debits as a seller: You file the direct debit with your bank. This can normally be done online through a web interface or various APIs (e.g. HBCI). The transaction is then processed through the Eurozone's TARGET2 system, i.e. the amount is withdrawn from the buyer's bank account and credited to the seller's bank account. This works in the entire Eurozone and is supposed to not take longer than a day. In practice, some countries take longer. E.g. I've seen payments between Germany and Italy take 3 days, but between Germany and France or within Germany it always takes 1 day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TARGET2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TARGET2

majani 14y ago

The Samwer bros are probably building to sell to Stripe, so they're using credit cards for Paymill to easily integrate into Stripe when that time comes.