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Because it's always been happening. If they didn't already have this sort of abuse practiced they wouldn't be so good at it. The ACLU used to write basically

Because it's always been happening. If they didn't already have this sort of abuse practiced they wouldn't be so good at it. The ACLU used to write basically the same exact pieces about the DEA Maybe it's 10% or 20% more prevalent or worse, I can't say from my vantage point, but it's a difference of degree, not a categorical one. You read these stories and they read exactly like all the other stories of how all sorts of "criminals" have been abused by the system for years, especially when they have a political blank check to do do. Making it hard for people to get a lawyer, moving too fast for people to appeal anything or get outside scrutiny is exactly how these systems have always behaved when they feel like it. Now it's ICE and not DEA or whatever but this is basically the level of abuse with which the authorities have always treated with. It's nice that the public is paying attention now, but I have very little hope that it will actually lead to systemic changes.

hartator 2y ago
Yes, nothing much changed law-wise. No due process at the borders is a shame both now and before, but hopefully this time there is a willingness to change things. Probably not at the next swing of power.
- ty6853 2y ago
  My guy will do better with the power they never destroy.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- whimsicalism 2y ago
  It is genuinely an extremely difficult challenge to manage illegal crossings if every individual must be processed through the full U.S. legal system which has massive resourcing and backlog problems (3m+ cases). Voters across the political spectrum have made it unmistakably clear — in poll after poll — that they are deeply dissatisfied with the current rate of illegal and asylum-seeking entries. Is there a morally permissible way to enact their will?
  - amanaplanacanal 2y ago
    Congress could increase funding for the courts enough so that they could do their job. But that would go against the Republican quest for smaller government and lower taxes.
    - vlovich123 2y ago
      This quest is a fig leaf. The expansion of the government has proceeded equally under both presidents. The republicans just choose to spend the budget on other things and are less willing to raise taxes to fund things. The current tariffs are an interesting PR workaround.
  - unethical_ban 2y ago
    Admit that the current and past efforts to keep people out and quickly deport people failed. And then set up reliable systems of verifying people's citizenship before they can get a job and quickly deport those who should be deported. Make it easier to work here legally in the US like it used to be in the 90s, and threaten CEOs with jail time if their companies have a pattern of hiring ineligible workers. And let's be clear, a lot of this border security "crisis" is rooted in racism and Fox news alarmism. The GOP likes having the problem because it keeps the base angry.
    - LorenPechtel 2y ago
      Rampant identity theft. And if you try to hold them accountable you'll make legal immigrants unable to get a job. Until we have identity theft under control strict checks on employers are a bad idea.
  - 0x5f3759df-i 2y ago
    Immigration courts are already separate from the rest of the legal system so the implication here is wrong. Going too slow for you? Hire more immigration judges, which are executive employees not full article 3 judges. Voters across the political spectrum have made it clear in poll after poll the last few weeks that they do not approve of the way this administration is grabbing whoever they can and shipping them out of the country without any check or verification that they are deporting the right people. If the administration can declare you an illegal immigrant with no due process they can ship anyone they want out of the country. They could grab you off the street, ship you to and El Salvador torture prison intentionally or by mistake (as they have already admitted to) and there’s nothing you can do about it.
hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
> Because it's always been happening. I don't like this kind of response because it's basically kind of an assumption, and you don't really give any evidence for it. On one hand, sure, abuses by people in positions of power have always happened, so if you're just making a general argument that enforcement authorities abuse power, I mean yeah, human nature. But this article is making some specific points: 1. Those who were deported were given basically zero access to even talk to a lawyer, and that in at least one case a habeas corpus petition was deliberately avoided by deporting the family at 6 AM before courts opened. 2. Multiple US minor citizen children were deported. So, no, without more evidence, I'm not willing to believe that it's just some minor increase of degree. While yes, I'm sure there have been abuses in the past, the current policy seems hellbent on deporting as many people as possible, due process be damned, and that was not the policy in previous years. I'd also highlight that the current President has said, explicitly, that deporting people without due process is his goal: https://truthout.org/articles/we-cannot-give-everyone-a-trial-trump-says-in-post-blasting-the-supreme-court/ https://truthout.org/articles/we-cannot-give-everyone-a-tria... In other words, I don't believe this is just an aberrant, abusive exception to the policy. It very much seems like this is the policy now.
- pclmulqdq 2y ago
  No, this kind of deportation and treatment of prisoners/detainees has been happening forever. This exact behavior has been happening forever, not just a general idea of malfeasance. The current attention on it smacks of politics in a way that is also very inhuman. Remember the "kids in cages" saga?
  - hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
    > No, this kind of deportation and treatment of prisoners/detainees has been happening forever. Another assertion without any justification or data. > Remember the "kids in cages" saga? Yes, of course, and that's the point. There was huge outcry then, and that cruel policy was implemented by the same person responsible for this policy. It doesn't make sense to say "this has been happening forever" and then bring up an example from 2017-2020. We are all well aware of Trump's view on immigration and the rule of law. The whole point is that Trump's policies are a huge aberration from what any other administration, Republican or Democrat, has put forth in the past 50 years.
UmGuys 2y ago
It has not. We have never previously sent immigrants to foreign concentration camps. There were internment camps which were bad enough during the war, but we're now kidnapping people, sending them to El Salvador, and locking them up for life.
- queenkjuul 2y ago
  People here really seem to like ignoring that part for some reason. That is a very real line that had not previously been crossed.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - freen 2y ago
    Especially the part about “we imprisoned legal residents of the US in a foreign country without due process and now can’t do anything about it, even though the Supreme Court told us we have to return them to the USA, because, whoops, they are imprisoned in a foreign country!” bit.
    - vkou 2y ago
      Can't do anything to bring them back, yet keep sending more people there. Here's a riddle for everyone. What do you call a prison where people go in without trial, never come out, and there's always room for more?
      - BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
        Have they sent more?
        freen 2y ago
        Yes. And will send more. https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/homegrowns-trump-doubles-sending-convicted-us-citizens-foreign/story?id=120802863 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/homegrowns-trump-doubles-sen...
grafmax 2y ago
I think you’re overlooking the fact that our world - and the U.S. in particular - is sinking deeper and deeper into a deep crisis. No one knows exactly where this crisis will lead, but one thing is clear: everything around us is undergoing systematic change. And if you care about that, now is the time to get involved, because it’s during the moments of crisis that societies change.
EasyMark 2y ago
Not the same thing. They are rushing people onto planes before the have any hope of seeing a judge, not documenting anything other than "we say so", and sometimes even sending deportees off to prisons well known for mistreatment and even torture of prisoners in El Salvador. This isn't even close to the same thing.

hartator 2y ago

Yes, nothing much changed law-wise. No due process at the borders is a shame both now and before, but hopefully this time there is a willingness to change things. Probably not at the next swing of power.

ty6853 2y ago
My guy will do better with the power they never destroy.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
whimsicalism 2y ago
It is genuinely an extremely difficult challenge to manage illegal crossings if every individual must be processed through the full U.S. legal system which has massive resourcing and backlog problems (3m+ cases). Voters across the political spectrum have made it unmistakably clear — in poll after poll — that they are deeply dissatisfied with the current rate of illegal and asylum-seeking entries. Is there a morally permissible way to enact their will?
- amanaplanacanal 2y ago
  Congress could increase funding for the courts enough so that they could do their job. But that would go against the Republican quest for smaller government and lower taxes.
  - vlovich123 2y ago
    This quest is a fig leaf. The expansion of the government has proceeded equally under both presidents. The republicans just choose to spend the budget on other things and are less willing to raise taxes to fund things. The current tariffs are an interesting PR workaround.
- unethical_ban 2y ago
  Admit that the current and past efforts to keep people out and quickly deport people failed. And then set up reliable systems of verifying people's citizenship before they can get a job and quickly deport those who should be deported. Make it easier to work here legally in the US like it used to be in the 90s, and threaten CEOs with jail time if their companies have a pattern of hiring ineligible workers. And let's be clear, a lot of this border security "crisis" is rooted in racism and Fox news alarmism. The GOP likes having the problem because it keeps the base angry.
  - LorenPechtel 2y ago
    Rampant identity theft. And if you try to hold them accountable you'll make legal immigrants unable to get a job. Until we have identity theft under control strict checks on employers are a bad idea.
- 0x5f3759df-i 2y ago
  Immigration courts are already separate from the rest of the legal system so the implication here is wrong. Going too slow for you? Hire more immigration judges, which are executive employees not full article 3 judges. Voters across the political spectrum have made it clear in poll after poll the last few weeks that they do not approve of the way this administration is grabbing whoever they can and shipping them out of the country without any check or verification that they are deporting the right people. If the administration can declare you an illegal immigrant with no due process they can ship anyone they want out of the country. They could grab you off the street, ship you to and El Salvador torture prison intentionally or by mistake (as they have already admitted to) and there’s nothing you can do about it.

hn_throwaway_99 2y ago

> Because it's always been happening. I don't like this kind of response because it's basically kind of an assumption, and you don't really give any evidence for it. On one hand, sure, abuses by people in positions of power have always happened, so if you're just making a general argument that enforcement authorities abuse power, I mean yeah, human nature. But this article is making some specific points: 1. Those who were deported were given basically zero access to even talk to a lawyer, and that in at least one case a habeas corpus petition was deliberately avoided by deporting the family at 6 AM before courts opened. 2. Multiple US minor citizen children were deported. So, no, without more evidence, I'm not willing to believe that it's just some minor increase of degree. While yes, I'm sure there have been abuses in the past, the current policy seems hellbent on deporting as many people as possible, due process be damned, and that was not the policy in previous years. I'd also highlight that the current President has said, explicitly, that deporting people without due process is his goal: https://truthout.org/articles/we-cannot-give-everyone-a-trial-trump-says-in-post-blasting-the-supreme-court/ https://truthout.org/articles/we-cannot-give-everyone-a-tria... In other words, I don't believe this is just an aberrant, abusive exception to the policy. It very much seems like this is the policy now.

pclmulqdq 2y ago
No, this kind of deportation and treatment of prisoners/detainees has been happening forever. This exact behavior has been happening forever, not just a general idea of malfeasance. The current attention on it smacks of politics in a way that is also very inhuman. Remember the "kids in cages" saga?
- hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
  > No, this kind of deportation and treatment of prisoners/detainees has been happening forever. Another assertion without any justification or data. > Remember the "kids in cages" saga? Yes, of course, and that's the point. There was huge outcry then, and that cruel policy was implemented by the same person responsible for this policy. It doesn't make sense to say "this has been happening forever" and then bring up an example from 2017-2020. We are all well aware of Trump's view on immigration and the rule of law. The whole point is that Trump's policies are a huge aberration from what any other administration, Republican or Democrat, has put forth in the past 50 years.

UmGuys 2y ago

It has not. We have never previously sent immigrants to foreign concentration camps. There were internment camps which were bad enough during the war, but we're now kidnapping people, sending them to El Salvador, and locking them up for life.

queenkjuul 2y ago
People here really seem to like ignoring that part for some reason. That is a very real line that had not previously been crossed.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- freen 2y ago
  Especially the part about “we imprisoned legal residents of the US in a foreign country without due process and now can’t do anything about it, even though the Supreme Court told us we have to return them to the USA, because, whoops, they are imprisoned in a foreign country!” bit.
  - vkou 2y ago
    Can't do anything to bring them back, yet keep sending more people there. Here's a riddle for everyone. What do you call a prison where people go in without trial, never come out, and there's always room for more?
    - BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
      Have they sent more?
      - freen 2y ago
        Yes. And will send more. https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/homegrowns-trump-doubles-sending-convicted-us-citizens-foreign/story?id=120802863 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/homegrowns-trump-doubles-sen...

grafmax 2y ago

I think you’re overlooking the fact that our world - and the U.S. in particular - is sinking deeper and deeper into a deep crisis. No one knows exactly where this crisis will lead, but one thing is clear: everything around us is undergoing systematic change. And if you care about that, now is the time to get involved, because it’s during the moments of crisis that societies change.

EasyMark 2y ago

Not the same thing. They are rushing people onto planes before the have any hope of seeing a judge, not documenting anything other than "we say so", and sometimes even sending deportees off to prisons well known for mistreatment and even torture of prisoners in El Salvador. This isn't even close to the same thing.