5 ms·

See https://community.home-assistant.io/t/rooting-to-save-the-nest-thermostat/119290 https://community.home-assistant.io/t/rooting-to-save-the-ne... , particula

See https://community.home-assistant.io/t/rooting-to-save-the-nest-thermostat/119290 https://community.home-assistant.io/t/rooting-to-save-the-ne... , particularly the post asking about using the older unofficial APIs with Nest Thermostats on an airgapped network controlled by Home Assistant ( https://community.home-assistant.io/t/rooting-to-save-the-nest-thermostat/119290/10 https://community.home-assistant.io/t/rooting-to-save-the-ne... ): I'm wondering if an approach to saving older Nest thermostats and reducing ewaste might be: - Using the older ‘unofficial API’ (from around 2014) assuming it still works, and integrate it with Home Assistant (see GitHub - gboudreau/nest-api: Unofficial Nest Learning Thermostat API ( https://github.com/gboudreau/nest-api https://github.com/gboudreau/nest-api ) & GitHub - wiredprairie/unofficial_nodejs_nest ( https://github.com/wiredprairie/unofficial_nodejs_nest#readme https://github.com/wiredprairie/unofficial_nodejs_nest#readm... ) ) - Encouraging folks to put older and unsupported Nest devices on a separate wireless network that doesn’t have internet access but access to a Home Assistant server for remote monitoring & control. - Facilitate a way for Home Assistant based HVAC control setups to work with energy company savings programs where appropriate (in areas of the US this is fairly common, but they may only be supporting major brand vendors so far)

bob1029 1y ago
> reducing ewaste The solution is to stop installing advanced touchscreen computer systems where they don't really belong. I've never seen a Honeywell thermostat fail, get hacked, or "lose support". I dont have to worry about what will happen if there is a weird software update or power outage. There are physical switches that configure the current mode of the system. Only the temperature setting is volatile, but it defaults to reasonable settings depending on the current mode (60F for heat, 80F for cool). Because of this simple design, there is no option to install a battery. There's nothing to remember.
- jasonjayr 1y ago
  Or make the device as SIMPLE as possible. The thermostat should be a remote display and a sensor. The real brains should happen on a controller near the heating system, that can be swapped in and out as time goes on.
  - akerl_ 1y ago
    The controller for the HVAC system costs a heck of a lot more than the thermostat.
    - EvanAnderson 1y ago
      The thermostat is the controller is most simple HVAC systems. The evaporator and air handler will have some "brains" re-compressor cycling and potentially fan speed, but the thermostat is calling for heat/cool.
      - quickthrowman 1y ago
        You mean condenser instead of evaporator, the evaporator is inside the furnace and has no controls as it’s just a coil. The outdoor a/c unit contains the condenser and compressor and has the contactor (and controller if it’s an EC motor) for the compressor motor. The contactor control coil is 24v and the contact is closed when a call for cold is received from the thermostat. Newer A/C units have EC motors with variable speed motor controllers and newer furnaces will have an EC motor blower fan and lots of factory control points wired up to a controller, mostly for the burner (and related gas/burner safeties). Still, even in newer furnaces and a/c units, the thermostat is the main controller as like you said, the calls for heat/cool are the only input to the system. Commercial HVAC controls for air handlers, boilers, and chillers have a lot more control points, an AHU can have 40 or more control inputs and outputs tied to it. Discharge and return air temp, multiple differential pressure sensors, static pressure, outdoor air temp, outdoor air pressure, duct avg temp, etc. These systems are much more complex than any home HVAC setup and usually have multiple controllers networked back to a master controller which orchestrates everything.
        EvanAnderson 1y ago
        Yeah. Wrong side of the cycle. Good call.
  - lolinder 1y ago
    As is the thermostat is a set of brains that can be swapped in and out as time goes on. I just swapped two thermostats in two homes a few weeks back and it took <20 minutes each with no prior knowledge, even though in both cases I had to swap the backplate. What is the benefit you see of moving the swappable brains closer to the heating system? Doesn't that actually make the whole system more complex because now you have two separate devices where there is currently one?
- akerl_ 1y ago
  The Nest Thermostats listed here are falling back to "Honeywell local thermostat" functionality. They will still work for turning the dial locally to control the temp. They just won't be IoT connected. The 3rd gen Nest thermostat was released in 2015. The 2nd gen and 1st gen were released in 2012 and 2011 respectively. A decade lifespan for a device that gives me metrics on my climate control and lets me tune it from my phone is pretty solid in my book.
  - EvanAnderson 1y ago
    > A decade lifespan for a device that gives me metrics on my climate control and lets me tune it from my phone is pretty solid in my book. That's the attitude I take issue with. The device should work as it did at the time of purchase in perpetuity. If it can't, because of the architecture of the product (i.e. needs third party servers on the Internet) it shouldn't be marketed as being sold, but rather rented. Acceptance that products we buy will just stop working (or, in the case of this product, losing significant functionality) is only encouraging companies to ratchet down lifetimes and hurt consumers more.
    - akerl_ 1y ago
      This feels like a distinction without a difference. If all the shelves at Lowes that sell network-connected IoT thermostats said "10 year rental price" instead of "purchase price", the average non-nerd consumer wouldn't change their shopping behavior. The nerds... maybe they would? but they're the ones who already realize the impact of a device needing cloud connectivity to function. The reality is that vendors cannot and will not offer "in perpetuity" commitments to run the cloud portion of their gear. For strategic reasons like "they want to deprecate legacy endpoints and functionality on their end" but also unintentional reasons like "the company went out of business". Everything you buy has a lifespan. Physical objects degrade over time, objects with cloud connectivity rely on external functionality, etc. Picking between them is part of the decision making process: do you buy the cheap furniture that falls apart the first time you move? Or the more expensive furniture that lasts decades? Should smoke detectors be listed as "rentals" because they degrade and have to be replaced?
- seltzered_ 1y ago
  Did you read my last point about "a way for Home Assistant based HVAC control setups to work with energy company savings programs where appropriate" ? Unless you're living off-grid, I think there's still some benefit to having one of the largest energy loads (building HVAC) coordinate a bit with utilities to ensure there aren't blackouts and such. Even better if there's an approach that works with open-source solutions like Home Assistant. Where I live staring at the grid load and available energy is a thing during heatwaves and other inclement weather, and the utility generally issues "energy rush hour" limits to smart thermostats to help ensure grid reliability. The utility also incentivizes this I think by providing a small discount on the utility bill.

bob1029 1y ago

> reducing ewaste The solution is to stop installing advanced touchscreen computer systems where they don't really belong. I've never seen a Honeywell thermostat fail, get hacked, or "lose support". I dont have to worry about what will happen if there is a weird software update or power outage. There are physical switches that configure the current mode of the system. Only the temperature setting is volatile, but it defaults to reasonable settings depending on the current mode (60F for heat, 80F for cool). Because of this simple design, there is no option to install a battery. There's nothing to remember.

jasonjayr 1y ago
Or make the device as SIMPLE as possible. The thermostat should be a remote display and a sensor. The real brains should happen on a controller near the heating system, that can be swapped in and out as time goes on.
- akerl_ 1y ago
  The controller for the HVAC system costs a heck of a lot more than the thermostat.
  - EvanAnderson 1y ago
    The thermostat is the controller is most simple HVAC systems. The evaporator and air handler will have some "brains" re-compressor cycling and potentially fan speed, but the thermostat is calling for heat/cool.
    - quickthrowman 1y ago
      You mean condenser instead of evaporator, the evaporator is inside the furnace and has no controls as it’s just a coil. The outdoor a/c unit contains the condenser and compressor and has the contactor (and controller if it’s an EC motor) for the compressor motor. The contactor control coil is 24v and the contact is closed when a call for cold is received from the thermostat. Newer A/C units have EC motors with variable speed motor controllers and newer furnaces will have an EC motor blower fan and lots of factory control points wired up to a controller, mostly for the burner (and related gas/burner safeties). Still, even in newer furnaces and a/c units, the thermostat is the main controller as like you said, the calls for heat/cool are the only input to the system. Commercial HVAC controls for air handlers, boilers, and chillers have a lot more control points, an AHU can have 40 or more control inputs and outputs tied to it. Discharge and return air temp, multiple differential pressure sensors, static pressure, outdoor air temp, outdoor air pressure, duct avg temp, etc. These systems are much more complex than any home HVAC setup and usually have multiple controllers networked back to a master controller which orchestrates everything.
      - EvanAnderson 1y ago
        Yeah. Wrong side of the cycle. Good call.
- lolinder 1y ago
  As is the thermostat is a set of brains that can be swapped in and out as time goes on. I just swapped two thermostats in two homes a few weeks back and it took <20 minutes each with no prior knowledge, even though in both cases I had to swap the backplate. What is the benefit you see of moving the swappable brains closer to the heating system? Doesn't that actually make the whole system more complex because now you have two separate devices where there is currently one?
akerl_ 1y ago
The Nest Thermostats listed here are falling back to "Honeywell local thermostat" functionality. They will still work for turning the dial locally to control the temp. They just won't be IoT connected. The 3rd gen Nest thermostat was released in 2015. The 2nd gen and 1st gen were released in 2012 and 2011 respectively. A decade lifespan for a device that gives me metrics on my climate control and lets me tune it from my phone is pretty solid in my book.
- EvanAnderson 1y ago
  > A decade lifespan for a device that gives me metrics on my climate control and lets me tune it from my phone is pretty solid in my book. That's the attitude I take issue with. The device should work as it did at the time of purchase in perpetuity. If it can't, because of the architecture of the product (i.e. needs third party servers on the Internet) it shouldn't be marketed as being sold, but rather rented. Acceptance that products we buy will just stop working (or, in the case of this product, losing significant functionality) is only encouraging companies to ratchet down lifetimes and hurt consumers more.
  - akerl_ 1y ago
    This feels like a distinction without a difference. If all the shelves at Lowes that sell network-connected IoT thermostats said "10 year rental price" instead of "purchase price", the average non-nerd consumer wouldn't change their shopping behavior. The nerds... maybe they would? but they're the ones who already realize the impact of a device needing cloud connectivity to function. The reality is that vendors cannot and will not offer "in perpetuity" commitments to run the cloud portion of their gear. For strategic reasons like "they want to deprecate legacy endpoints and functionality on their end" but also unintentional reasons like "the company went out of business". Everything you buy has a lifespan. Physical objects degrade over time, objects with cloud connectivity rely on external functionality, etc. Picking between them is part of the decision making process: do you buy the cheap furniture that falls apart the first time you move? Or the more expensive furniture that lasts decades? Should smoke detectors be listed as "rentals" because they degrade and have to be replaced?
seltzered_ 1y ago
Did you read my last point about "a way for Home Assistant based HVAC control setups to work with energy company savings programs where appropriate" ? Unless you're living off-grid, I think there's still some benefit to having one of the largest energy loads (building HVAC) coordinate a bit with utilities to ensure there aren't blackouts and such. Even better if there's an approach that works with open-source solutions like Home Assistant. Where I live staring at the grid load and available energy is a thing during heatwaves and other inclement weather, and the utility generally issues "energy rush hour" limits to smart thermostats to help ensure grid reliability. The utility also incentivizes this I think by providing a small discount on the utility bill.