4 ms·

Is Our Children Learning Enough Grammar to Get Hired?

6 points by andrewl 14y ago

billswift 14y ago
Pendarvis Theory of Technology: "..., it is my theory that everything wrong with everything is the fault of language teachers. "If a child is taught that it is all right if you mis-spell a word occasionally, or don't always punctuate exactly correctly, then you are teaching that child that small mistakes are okay, as long as people know pretty well what is meant. I feel this is a dangerous attitude to foster in a highly technological society." from William Tuning's novel Fuzzy Bones He goes on with an example that could have come from what I have read about one of the difficulties that contributed to the problems at Three-Mile Island; not paying enough attention to what the instruments were saying (as an example of inadequate attention to detail). Steve Allen's Dumbth ( http://www.amazon.com/Dumbth-Thinking-Reason-Better-Improve/dp/1573922374/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1344942834&sr=8-1&keywords=dumbth http://www.amazon.com/Dumbth-Thinking-Reason-Better-Improve/... ) discusses how things have broken down in general over decades; and it long pre-dates the texting and Twitter used as excuses for sloppy grammar several of the essays' writers fall back on.
- gte910h 14y ago
  To this I retort with Steven Fry's piece on language pedantry: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-aoXLZGY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-aoXLZGY
  - rsanchez1 14y ago
    There's a difference between being pedantic about language and desiring clarity, as Fry pointed out in that piece. Additionally, apathy and ignorance about language, not just grammar but all that encompasses language as a means of communicating ideas, makes it very easy to be deceived with language. Here is a piece by George Orwell on Politics and English Language which touches more on the degradation of English used to express ideas: https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm "It has nothing to do with correct grammar and syntax, which are of no importance so long as one makes one's meaning clear, or with the avoidance of Americanisms, or with having what is called a "good prose style." "What is above all needed is to let the meaning choose the word, and not the other way around. In prose, the worst thing one can do with words is surrender to them." The gist of it is that good grammar should arise naturally from the clear communication of ideas. When you are sure of what you want to say, the words to say it should naturally come to you. Ideas should hunt for words, instead of words hunting for ideas. If you're writing with bad grammar, why should I worry about what you're saying if you yourself don't even know what you mean to say? If you don't know what you mean to say, how can you know what a politician or a CEO means to say? How can you avoid being deceived if you don't have a good grasp of language and meaning? Why should I hire you if you are so easily deceived?
losethos 14y ago
Sensativity to grammar errors leads to distraction. What's good about not being fault tolerant? If Bush botches something, you're distracted and don't hear the next 30 seconds. Being fault tolerant is obviously better, especially if you interact with nonnative speakers who make mistakes. We are social creatures and pecking-order is very important and we use grammar for IQ and status. Apart from that, what's so great about not being fault tolerant? ---- Of course, we live in the real world and unless you want your listeners zoning into thoughts of "he made a mistake! Damn, did you see that? He made a mistake!", you'd be wise not making mistakes! Nothing would be more awful than a prime-time piano concert where there's a catastrophic mistake! Nobody feels good. Remarkibly, it doesn't happen! Dan Quail... I have to be careful -- I now see it as worse than I did. ---- God says... C:\Text\WEALTH.TXT y proportioned to the demand. "But there are also some callings which, though useful and even necessary in a state, bring no advantage or pleasure to any individual; and the supreme power is obliged to alter its conduct with regard to the retainers of those professions. It must give them public encouragement in order to their subsistence; and it must provide against that negligence to which they will naturally be subject, either by annexing particular honours to profession, by establishing a long
jack-r-abbit 14y ago
ok... I'm no grammar expert but isn't the article title using improper grammar? With children being a plural form of child I would have started that question with are not is. Is children... doesn't sound right not me. If you rearrange the words so it is a statement and not a question (Our Children Is Learning Enough Grammar to Get Hired.) using is sounds bad to me. Is it trying to be ironic?
- gizmo686 14y ago
  Be our children learning enough grammar to get hired?
- Kronopath 14y ago
  Yes, it's being ironic. It's also a reference to this infamous Bush quote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ej7ZEnjSeA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ej7ZEnjSeA
  - jack-r-abbit 14y ago
    oops... totally forgot about that gem. Now I just look like an idiot.
    - Kronopath 14y ago
      Happens to the best of us.
gte910h 14y ago
I think that older generations are unaware the current generation's grammar skills are not particularly bad or good, just more likely to be explicitly tested. I know plenty of 30 and 40 year olds who write like crap, with horrible grammar.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
gte910h 14y ago
I think that older generations are unaware the current generation's grammar skills are not particularly bad or good, just more likely to be explicitly tested. I know plenty of 30 and 40 year olds who write like crap, with horrible grammar.
lutusp 14y ago
Obviously one can make too much of bad grammar and spelling and misjudge an applicant, but there's another angle to this -- good grammar and spelling send a clear signal that the applicant probably reads a lot. One cannot easily learn good English grammar and spelling by rote, because there are too many pitfalls and exceptions. My favorite example is "I before E except after C". It turns out that more words in a typical dictionary violate this rule than obey it. My next favorite example are those who, over the years, have written me to comment on my ... choose one ... Web site|sight|cite. (This specific example shows the risk of relying on audio media rather than print.) I recently visited a bookstore and saw this poster: "The Tragedy of Illiteracy -- now available as an audiobook." By reading, one grasps the subtleties of grammar and spelling through example. More reading, more lexical seasoning.

6 points by andrewl 14y ago

Pendarvis Theory of Technology: "..., it is my theory that everything wrong with everything is the fault of language teachers. "If a child is taught that it is all right if you mis-spell a word occasionally, or don't always punctuate exactly correctly, then you are teaching that child that small mistakes are okay, as long as people know pretty well what is meant. I feel this is a dangerous attitude to foster in a highly technological society." from William Tuning's novel Fuzzy Bones He goes on with an example that could have come from what I have read about one of the difficulties that contributed to the problems at Three-Mile Island; not paying enough attention to what the instruments were saying (as an example of inadequate attention to detail). Steve Allen's Dumbth ( http://www.amazon.com/Dumbth-Thinking-Reason-Better-Improve/dp/1573922374/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1344942834&sr=8-1&keywords=dumbth http://www.amazon.com/Dumbth-Thinking-Reason-Better-Improve/... ) discusses how things have broken down in general over decades; and it long pre-dates the texting and Twitter used as excuses for sloppy grammar several of the essays' writers fall back on.

gte910h 14y ago
To this I retort with Steven Fry's piece on language pedantry: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-aoXLZGY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-aoXLZGY
- rsanchez1 14y ago
  There's a difference between being pedantic about language and desiring clarity, as Fry pointed out in that piece. Additionally, apathy and ignorance about language, not just grammar but all that encompasses language as a means of communicating ideas, makes it very easy to be deceived with language. Here is a piece by George Orwell on Politics and English Language which touches more on the degradation of English used to express ideas: https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm "It has nothing to do with correct grammar and syntax, which are of no importance so long as one makes one's meaning clear, or with the avoidance of Americanisms, or with having what is called a "good prose style." "What is above all needed is to let the meaning choose the word, and not the other way around. In prose, the worst thing one can do with words is surrender to them." The gist of it is that good grammar should arise naturally from the clear communication of ideas. When you are sure of what you want to say, the words to say it should naturally come to you. Ideas should hunt for words, instead of words hunting for ideas. If you're writing with bad grammar, why should I worry about what you're saying if you yourself don't even know what you mean to say? If you don't know what you mean to say, how can you know what a politician or a CEO means to say? How can you avoid being deceived if you don't have a good grasp of language and meaning? Why should I hire you if you are so easily deceived?

losethos 14y ago

Sensativity to grammar errors leads to distraction. What's good about not being fault tolerant? If Bush botches something, you're distracted and don't hear the next 30 seconds. Being fault tolerant is obviously better, especially if you interact with nonnative speakers who make mistakes. We are social creatures and pecking-order is very important and we use grammar for IQ and status. Apart from that, what's so great about not being fault tolerant? ---- Of course, we live in the real world and unless you want your listeners zoning into thoughts of "he made a mistake! Damn, did you see that? He made a mistake!", you'd be wise not making mistakes! Nothing would be more awful than a prime-time piano concert where there's a catastrophic mistake! Nobody feels good. Remarkibly, it doesn't happen! Dan Quail... I have to be careful -- I now see it as worse than I did. ---- God says... C:\Text\WEALTH.TXT y proportioned to the demand. "But there are also some callings which, though useful and even necessary in a state, bring no advantage or pleasure to any individual; and the supreme power is obliged to alter its conduct with regard to the retainers of those professions. It must give them public encouragement in order to their subsistence; and it must provide against that negligence to which they will naturally be subject, either by annexing particular honours to profession, by establishing a long

jack-r-abbit 14y ago

ok... I'm no grammar expert but isn't the article title using improper grammar? With children being a plural form of child I would have started that question with are not is. Is children... doesn't sound right not me. If you rearrange the words so it is a statement and not a question (Our Children Is Learning Enough Grammar to Get Hired.) using is sounds bad to me. Is it trying to be ironic?

gizmo686 14y ago
Be our children learning enough grammar to get hired?
Kronopath 14y ago
Yes, it's being ironic. It's also a reference to this infamous Bush quote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ej7ZEnjSeA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ej7ZEnjSeA
- jack-r-abbit 14y ago
  oops... totally forgot about that gem. Now I just look like an idiot.
  - Kronopath 14y ago
    Happens to the best of us.

gte910h 14y ago

I think that older generations are unaware the current generation's grammar skills are not particularly bad or good, just more likely to be explicitly tested. I know plenty of 30 and 40 year olds who write like crap, with horrible grammar.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

gte910h 14y ago

lutusp 14y ago

Obviously one can make too much of bad grammar and spelling and misjudge an applicant, but there's another angle to this -- good grammar and spelling send a clear signal that the applicant probably reads a lot. One cannot easily learn good English grammar and spelling by rote, because there are too many pitfalls and exceptions. My favorite example is "I before E except after C". It turns out that more words in a typical dictionary violate this rule than obey it. My next favorite example are those who, over the years, have written me to comment on my ... choose one ... Web site|sight|cite. (This specific example shows the risk of relying on audio media rather than print.) I recently visited a bookstore and saw this poster: "The Tragedy of Illiteracy -- now available as an audiobook." By reading, one grasps the subtleties of grammar and spelling through example. More reading, more lexical seasoning.