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My younger bro is convinced phones are eavesdropping on conversations and got particularly paranoid (I thought) a year or so back in regard to talking in earsh

My younger bro is convinced phones are eavesdropping on conversations and got particularly paranoid (I thought) a year or so back in regard to talking in earshot of his phone. His evidence is empirical - Apparently he gets pretty high with friends and shit talks - but when when the search started to suggest some pretty way out things along the same lines, he landed that their conversations weren't private any more. So I have an understanding of how much tracking is going on so I pressed him on that. But he assured me it was stuff he would not even bother to look up in a clearer mindset and of course smoking recreationally for a very long time knows not to go near some tools that could land himself trouble or awkward explanations. That's probably true he says a lot of stuff that a half decent search would put him straight. In the end I just figured loose permissions of one of the many apps he's installed and that's how they (the app) make their money, selling illegally obtained data to more legal sources. Permissions are the problem with android phones - there needs to be a specific install route for users, one that the app starts asking for things it should not need have access to, the installer refuses to install and suggests the user look for something better. Camera apps for example really don't need access to communication channels, if it's updates it's need, it can ask - one time access.

JadeNB 1y ago
> Permissions are the problem with android phones - there needs to be a specific install route for users, one that the app starts asking for things it should not need have access to, the installer refuses to install and suggests the user look for something better. Camera apps for example really don't need access to communication channels, if it's updates it's need, it can ask - one time access. I definitely don't want my phone making those decisions for me; I want my phone enabling me to make decisions. The app asks for permissions, I say no, and, rather than ratting me out to the app, my phone does its best to pretend to the app that it (the app) has the permission it wants, say by giving an empty contact book or whatever. (I know rooted phones can do this, but it shouldn't have to be something I have to fight my phone for.)
bigyabai 1y ago
He is right, all modern phone brands are surveillance devices furnished to provide the OEM with identifying data: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/12/apple-admits-to-secretly-giving-governments-push-notification-data/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/12/apple-admits-to-...
marcusb 1y ago
> Apparently he gets pretty high with friends and shit talks - but when when the search started to suggest some pretty way out things along the same lines, he landed that their conversations weren't private any more. I had an experience like this several years ago. I was having dinner with a customer, and one of the guys brought up this story about how he went to school with someone who got caught cheating on Who Wants to be a Millionaire. Later, back at my hotel, I pulled up YouTube and the first recommended video was of the guy who got caught cheating on the game show. I had not searched for this during the conversation (or prior) nor do I watch game show videos on YouTube, or cheating scandal videos on YouTube. Here's what I think happened: somebody at the dinner googled it, and the video got recommended based either on geo-location data (we were in close proximity) or because the person who googled it was in my phone contacts, or maybe both. But, I don't think Google/Youtube was recording anyone's conversation to make that recommendation.
- wzdd 1y ago
  It could also be that YouTube started recommending this video to people for whatever reason, which was why it was on this guy’s mind.
  - marcusb 1y ago
    Anything is possible, but he didn't start the conversation about cheating. Someone else brought up something to the effect of they thought game shows were fake, then he told his story and a third person the table searched for and showed the video.
edgyquant 1y ago
He’s right and everyone knows it. It's pretty blatant and there have been lawsuits settle rather than go to a trial that would surely reveal the extent to which this thing that’s obviously happening is happening https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/apple-siri-privacy-settlement-20011752.php?utm_source=chatgpt.com https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/apple-siri-priva...
- simonw 1y ago
  I attempted to debunk that one here (an admittedly impossible task but I can't help myself trying): https://simonwillison.net/2025/Jan/2/they-spy-on-you-but-not-like-that/ https://simonwillison.net/2025/Jan/2/they-spy-on-you-but-not...
  - number6 1y ago
    A swan can't stop a hurricane
    - simonw 1y ago
      OK wow that actually fits here. https://simonwillison.net/2025/Apr/23/meaning-slop/ https://simonwillison.net/2025/Apr/23/meaning-slop/
      - anenefan 1y ago
        lol so it's getting that bad. Assigning meaning to random phrases is BS. If it keeps on going it'll start attributing meaning to misspelled words. LLMs are only as good or bad as they are created - or their function / parameters? Google got real sad mid 00s - it's all about the money now isn't it. Topic recently [1] re Google A.I. BSing. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43748171 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43748171 ('Epistemological Slop: Lies, Damned Lies, and Google' - <newcartographies.com>)
        number6 1y ago
steve_adams_86 1y ago
Something I discovered when going down this rabbit hole is that if you had that conversation in your house and your visitors have access to your wifi, it may be that they performed the search without you knowing, and your ISP connected that data to you and sold it (as they do).
- brody_hamer 1y ago
  Location location location. - User 1 shows an interest in <topic>. - User 1 visits the same location, for the same period of time, as user 2. - So I show an ad for <topic> to user 2.
- nickpsecurity 1y ago
  That's true. I had to rule that out by only counting instances when my friends and I were alone. If not, or Wifi is open, then who knows.
- simonw 1y ago
  How would your ISP connect that data if every search engine uses HTTPS now, so there's no way for the ISP to see what you were searching for?
  - lamp_book 1y ago
    Yeah, it's Google and Facebook - not the ISP.
  - IggleSniggle 1y ago
    DNS lookups are still frequently in the clear, and even if they're not, that just means you're trusting some DNS-over-HTTPS provider. The incentives are perverse. And of course whoever you are performing your search with, like, oh, an ad company like Google, Meta, or Facebook? They just might use that search data for something.
    - simonw 1y ago
      Exactly. Google or Meta can correlate behavioral data like this. Your ISP cannot do that by intercepting your searches. I care about accuracy when it comes to privacy conversations. I don't want people wasting their time on theories that aren't true when they should be focusing on the real issues at stake.
Argonaut998 1y ago
This matches up with my exact thoughts too. My old phone was an Android, and it was quite old in that the manufacturer hadn't updated it in a while. There were times when speaking about something would give me ads relating to it on Google, or posts in Instagram's case. Then I got an iPhone and it stopped completely. My wife has a newer Android phone and the same things happen to her. Now, I swear I read a few years ago that Facebook have teams to deliberately look for vulnerabilities to exploit, as well as things such as this: https://x.com/ashk4n/status/1070349123516170240 https://x.com/ashk4n/status/1070349123516170240. So my personal conclusion(s) is this: 1. There are vulnerabilities in older (if not current) Android versions which companies like Meta exploit to eavesdrop at all times, or at least while the app is not closed. 2. Most people just provide the 'While using the App' or 'Always allow' permissions for the microphone/camera, so this basically gives permission for them to do that regardless, even if it's not what those permissions were requested for (sending a voice message, taking a picture to post etc), BUT now there are status lights for when apps are using the microphone/camera which I never noticed been activated on my wife's phone when using it, unless for the correct reasons. Between all the apps people use daily which is pretty much Instagram/Twitter/TikTok/WhatsApp, microphone permissions tend to be enabled, and if they are, then most of someone's screen time is on an app with those permissions. Not to mention the 'Google' app on Android phones which seems to have every single permission enabled at all times that perpetually runs. Sorry, but I'm not buying the "someone else in your home searched something similar" or "ads are so advanced that they can predict what you want" etc excuses. I'm extremely careful with what I search. I have never experienced this once I switched to an iPhone, but I have experienced it too many times when on Android.

JadeNB 1y ago

> Permissions are the problem with android phones - there needs to be a specific install route for users, one that the app starts asking for things it should not need have access to, the installer refuses to install and suggests the user look for something better. Camera apps for example really don't need access to communication channels, if it's updates it's need, it can ask - one time access. I definitely don't want my phone making those decisions for me; I want my phone enabling me to make decisions. The app asks for permissions, I say no, and, rather than ratting me out to the app, my phone does its best to pretend to the app that it (the app) has the permission it wants, say by giving an empty contact book or whatever. (I know rooted phones can do this, but it shouldn't have to be something I have to fight my phone for.)

bigyabai 1y ago

He is right, all modern phone brands are surveillance devices furnished to provide the OEM with identifying data: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/12/apple-admits-to-secretly-giving-governments-push-notification-data/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/12/apple-admits-to-...

marcusb 1y ago

> Apparently he gets pretty high with friends and shit talks - but when when the search started to suggest some pretty way out things along the same lines, he landed that their conversations weren't private any more. I had an experience like this several years ago. I was having dinner with a customer, and one of the guys brought up this story about how he went to school with someone who got caught cheating on Who Wants to be a Millionaire. Later, back at my hotel, I pulled up YouTube and the first recommended video was of the guy who got caught cheating on the game show. I had not searched for this during the conversation (or prior) nor do I watch game show videos on YouTube, or cheating scandal videos on YouTube. Here's what I think happened: somebody at the dinner googled it, and the video got recommended based either on geo-location data (we were in close proximity) or because the person who googled it was in my phone contacts, or maybe both. But, I don't think Google/Youtube was recording anyone's conversation to make that recommendation.

wzdd 1y ago
It could also be that YouTube started recommending this video to people for whatever reason, which was why it was on this guy’s mind.
- marcusb 1y ago
  Anything is possible, but he didn't start the conversation about cheating. Someone else brought up something to the effect of they thought game shows were fake, then he told his story and a third person the table searched for and showed the video.

edgyquant 1y ago

He’s right and everyone knows it. It's pretty blatant and there have been lawsuits settle rather than go to a trial that would surely reveal the extent to which this thing that’s obviously happening is happening https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/apple-siri-privacy-settlement-20011752.php?utm_source=chatgpt.com https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/apple-siri-priva...

simonw 1y ago
I attempted to debunk that one here (an admittedly impossible task but I can't help myself trying): https://simonwillison.net/2025/Jan/2/they-spy-on-you-but-not-like-that/ https://simonwillison.net/2025/Jan/2/they-spy-on-you-but-not...
- number6 1y ago
  A swan can't stop a hurricane
  - simonw 1y ago
    OK wow that actually fits here. https://simonwillison.net/2025/Apr/23/meaning-slop/ https://simonwillison.net/2025/Apr/23/meaning-slop/
    - anenefan 1y ago
      lol so it's getting that bad. Assigning meaning to random phrases is BS. If it keeps on going it'll start attributing meaning to misspelled words. LLMs are only as good or bad as they are created - or their function / parameters? Google got real sad mid 00s - it's all about the money now isn't it. Topic recently [1] re Google A.I. BSing. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43748171 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43748171 ('Epistemological Slop: Lies, Damned Lies, and Google' - <newcartographies.com>)
      - number6 1y ago

steve_adams_86 1y ago

Something I discovered when going down this rabbit hole is that if you had that conversation in your house and your visitors have access to your wifi, it may be that they performed the search without you knowing, and your ISP connected that data to you and sold it (as they do).

brody_hamer 1y ago
Location location location. - User 1 shows an interest in <topic>. - User 1 visits the same location, for the same period of time, as user 2. - So I show an ad for <topic> to user 2.
nickpsecurity 1y ago
That's true. I had to rule that out by only counting instances when my friends and I were alone. If not, or Wifi is open, then who knows.
simonw 1y ago
How would your ISP connect that data if every search engine uses HTTPS now, so there's no way for the ISP to see what you were searching for?
- lamp_book 1y ago
  Yeah, it's Google and Facebook - not the ISP.
- IggleSniggle 1y ago
  DNS lookups are still frequently in the clear, and even if they're not, that just means you're trusting some DNS-over-HTTPS provider. The incentives are perverse. And of course whoever you are performing your search with, like, oh, an ad company like Google, Meta, or Facebook? They just might use that search data for something.
  - simonw 1y ago
    Exactly. Google or Meta can correlate behavioral data like this. Your ISP cannot do that by intercepting your searches. I care about accuracy when it comes to privacy conversations. I don't want people wasting their time on theories that aren't true when they should be focusing on the real issues at stake.

Argonaut998 1y ago

This matches up with my exact thoughts too. My old phone was an Android, and it was quite old in that the manufacturer hadn't updated it in a while. There were times when speaking about something would give me ads relating to it on Google, or posts in Instagram's case. Then I got an iPhone and it stopped completely. My wife has a newer Android phone and the same things happen to her. Now, I swear I read a few years ago that Facebook have teams to deliberately look for vulnerabilities to exploit, as well as things such as this: https://x.com/ashk4n/status/1070349123516170240 https://x.com/ashk4n/status/1070349123516170240. So my personal conclusion(s) is this: 1. There are vulnerabilities in older (if not current) Android versions which companies like Meta exploit to eavesdrop at all times, or at least while the app is not closed. 2. Most people just provide the 'While using the App' or 'Always allow' permissions for the microphone/camera, so this basically gives permission for them to do that regardless, even if it's not what those permissions were requested for (sending a voice message, taking a picture to post etc), BUT now there are status lights for when apps are using the microphone/camera which I never noticed been activated on my wife's phone when using it, unless for the correct reasons. Between all the apps people use daily which is pretty much Instagram/Twitter/TikTok/WhatsApp, microphone permissions tend to be enabled, and if they are, then most of someone's screen time is on an app with those permissions. Not to mention the 'Google' app on Android phones which seems to have every single permission enabled at all times that perpetually runs. Sorry, but I'm not buying the "someone else in your home searched something similar" or "ads are so advanced that they can predict what you want" etc excuses. I'm extremely careful with what I search. I have never experienced this once I switched to an iPhone, but I have experienced it too many times when on Android.