2 ms·

When fighting back helps your enemy, then yes then you shouldn't do it. That is pretty obvious. Don't fight back when the terrain favors your enemy even if it

When fighting back helps your enemy, then yes then you shouldn't do it. That is pretty obvious. Don't fight back when the terrain favors your enemy even if it is your land, you fight where you can win. War isn't won by who holds the most land, but by who defeats the enemy troops. You need to build support from the people, not do things that lose support.

kelseyfrog 2y ago
Can you sketch out the type of person who see fighting back over these things as an over-reaction? Who are they? I've never met one, so it's hard to imagine they're real.
- Jensson 2y ago
  Your average Fox News reader. You might not like it but they also get to vote. And no, even the people who watches Fox News do not want USA to become a fascist state, they like their democracy.
  - kelseyfrog 2y ago
    And I'm trying to not provoke them so that they reach a point where we lock arms and resist authoritarianism together?
    - Jensson 2y ago
      Yes, as long as they hate fascism more than they hate you they will help you defeat fascism when the time comes. But if you have built up enough resentment over the years then they will pick fascism over you. It happened in Germany and could happen in USA.
      - kelseyfrog 2y ago
        Got it. So they're playing "The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting," card and they've convinced us that by holding back we'll have a chance to meet them when the time comes, but by then it's too late. They'll have made the possibility of resistance meaningless. Thank you for the insightful discussion.
      - CamperBob2 2y ago
        Yes, as long as they hate fascism more than they hate you They absolutely do not. We know that. They are cultists. They will cut off their own foot if it means a "lib" loses his leg.
        hellojesus 2y ago
        If you haven't previously, I recommend spending time consuming right leaning media. I find that both right and left media tend to say the same things about the other side. It's a bit wild when you first realize it, when you hear your exact arguments about the others being said by the others about you. Finding common ground is always the best path. Determine where the actual differences are beyond the meme propaganda, and you may be able to better connect with other world views.
        CamperBob2 2y ago
        I find that both right and left media tend to say the same things about the other side The left tends to be more likely to be correct, however (speaking as someone who identifies with neither.) This isn't a matter of opinion; polls have repeatedly found that Fox News viewers, for example, are less well-informed than people who consume no news at all. "BSAB" thinking doesn't work. No good reasons remain for pretending that it does. One side is objectively and consistently bad for America... but they are better at herding dull-witted people to the polls, so they are winning.
        kelseyfrog 2y ago
        It used to feel smart: "Both sides are bad." It signaled discernment, wisdom, immunity to empty tribalism. We thought neutrality made us wiser. But detachment isn’t a moral stance; it’s a luxury belief from a world where the system mostly worked. Today, one side has abandoned the rules entirely. Neutrality isn't wisdom anymore. Neutrality is abdication. "Both sides are bad" was an optimization for an environment that doesn't exist anymore: shared facts, rational actors, institutional guardrails. We live in the failure modes now: information war, procedural collapse, manufactured resentment. We aren't floating above it. We’re being crushed by it. And the longer we cling to detached cleverness, the more we surrender to people who act without waiting for certainty. Yes, action without clarity is dangerous. Yes, there are wrong moves that make collapse worse. But paralysis, waiting, hoping, optimizing forever for a world that already ended kills just the same. It only feels cleaner on the way down. They already moved. We're still here, swirling the last drops of neutrality in our glasses, mistaking abdication for wisdom, even as the last undergirders of the state give way beneath us.
      - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
        > Yes, as long as they hate fascism Really big conditional. A huge amount love fascism, in terms of sharing the same values and desires. How can they resist the allure: "we'll give you everything you want, and you won't even have to work for it by convincing others you're right, because we'll crush those who oppose us". As long as they believe they'll always be the ones in power (see the crushing dissent part), they see that as a dream come true. Just look at how conservatives have openly opposed due process and judicial checks and balances over the executive branch lately*. * – Which country am I discussing here? Could be a few lately!
Teever 2y ago
There's a metarule to the rule that you're discussing. "Don't struggle -- only within the ground rules that the people you're struggling against have laid down." If fighting back helps your enemy, don't just pause and not fight back. Change the state of the system so that the most effective thing -- fighting back -- is viable. Get inside their OODA loop. Change the rhythm of things so that it suits your needs and not theirs.

kelseyfrog 2y ago

Can you sketch out the type of person who see fighting back over these things as an over-reaction? Who are they? I've never met one, so it's hard to imagine they're real.

Jensson 2y ago
Your average Fox News reader. You might not like it but they also get to vote. And no, even the people who watches Fox News do not want USA to become a fascist state, they like their democracy.
- kelseyfrog 2y ago
  And I'm trying to not provoke them so that they reach a point where we lock arms and resist authoritarianism together?
  - Jensson 2y ago
    Yes, as long as they hate fascism more than they hate you they will help you defeat fascism when the time comes. But if you have built up enough resentment over the years then they will pick fascism over you. It happened in Germany and could happen in USA.
    - kelseyfrog 2y ago
      Got it. So they're playing "The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting," card and they've convinced us that by holding back we'll have a chance to meet them when the time comes, but by then it's too late. They'll have made the possibility of resistance meaningless. Thank you for the insightful discussion.
    - CamperBob2 2y ago
      Yes, as long as they hate fascism more than they hate you They absolutely do not. We know that. They are cultists. They will cut off their own foot if it means a "lib" loses his leg.
      - hellojesus 2y ago
        If you haven't previously, I recommend spending time consuming right leaning media. I find that both right and left media tend to say the same things about the other side. It's a bit wild when you first realize it, when you hear your exact arguments about the others being said by the others about you. Finding common ground is always the best path. Determine where the actual differences are beyond the meme propaganda, and you may be able to better connect with other world views.
        CamperBob2 2y ago
        I find that both right and left media tend to say the same things about the other side The left tends to be more likely to be correct, however (speaking as someone who identifies with neither.) This isn't a matter of opinion; polls have repeatedly found that Fox News viewers, for example, are less well-informed than people who consume no news at all. "BSAB" thinking doesn't work. No good reasons remain for pretending that it does. One side is objectively and consistently bad for America... but they are better at herding dull-witted people to the polls, so they are winning.
        kelseyfrog 2y ago
        It used to feel smart: "Both sides are bad." It signaled discernment, wisdom, immunity to empty tribalism. We thought neutrality made us wiser. But detachment isn’t a moral stance; it’s a luxury belief from a world where the system mostly worked. Today, one side has abandoned the rules entirely. Neutrality isn't wisdom anymore. Neutrality is abdication. "Both sides are bad" was an optimization for an environment that doesn't exist anymore: shared facts, rational actors, institutional guardrails. We live in the failure modes now: information war, procedural collapse, manufactured resentment. We aren't floating above it. We’re being crushed by it. And the longer we cling to detached cleverness, the more we surrender to people who act without waiting for certainty. Yes, action without clarity is dangerous. Yes, there are wrong moves that make collapse worse. But paralysis, waiting, hoping, optimizing forever for a world that already ended kills just the same. It only feels cleaner on the way down. They already moved. We're still here, swirling the last drops of neutrality in our glasses, mistaking abdication for wisdom, even as the last undergirders of the state give way beneath us.
    - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
      > Yes, as long as they hate fascism Really big conditional. A huge amount love fascism, in terms of sharing the same values and desires. How can they resist the allure: "we'll give you everything you want, and you won't even have to work for it by convincing others you're right, because we'll crush those who oppose us". As long as they believe they'll always be the ones in power (see the crushing dissent part), they see that as a dream come true. Just look at how conservatives have openly opposed due process and judicial checks and balances over the executive branch lately*. * – Which country am I discussing here? Could be a few lately!

Teever 2y ago

There's a metarule to the rule that you're discussing. "Don't struggle -- only within the ground rules that the people you're struggling against have laid down." If fighting back helps your enemy, don't just pause and not fight back. Change the state of the system so that the most effective thing -- fighting back -- is viable. Get inside their OODA loop. Change the rhythm of things so that it suits your needs and not theirs.