3 ms·

"Plenty of indigenous peoples around the world are/were quite happy with "having enough"." This kind of 'reasoning' makes my blood boil. I've told this story a

by roel_v 14y ago

"Plenty of indigenous peoples around the world are/were quite happy with "having enough"." This kind of 'reasoning' makes my blood boil. I've told this story a million times, but here it goes again: I was once in Puno in Peru, at the shore of lake Titicaca. It's a famous tourist attraction, where 'indigenous' (I loathe that word) people used to live on floating 'islands' made out of reed. The story that is portrayed to the tourists is that they still do; as happens with many of that sort of travels, I was surrounded by obnoxious 'embrace other cultures' idiots who were saying how great it was that these people still lived like they used to, and how much better it would be if we (= in the West) would also do so, and how 'authentic' it all was. Well, we were on the first boat of the day, and along with us rode a bunch of 'indigenous' people with reed skirts who had missed their boat to the island 45 minutes earlier, because they were living in Puno in a proper house where their kids could play soccer and where they didn't have to fear at night that the very house they and their children were sleeping in would sink from right under them. While a bunch of rich white assholes (disclaimer: I'm white and by most global standards fairly rich, I guess, although I think that most of the time I'm not an asshole) were proclaiming how 'authentic' living on a reed boat was, these people who were actually living that life decided that they would get out of it as soon as they could.

vacri 14y ago
Boil away. I also hate the "aren't they quaint" crowd, who think it's a shame that third-worlders buy mass-produced t-shirts these days. But how many cultures were as driven by the need for pure wealth as Europeans were? If it's a 'human trait', why do we see broad technological development in only several areas? I mean, hell, if your argument is "Folks in Puno were scared that their house might sink", let me counter with "Fuck it was hard for the masses in England during the Industrial Revolution", and it was the wealthiest nation the world had ever seen to date. England was spurred to improve their lot so drastically because of culture, not innate human nature. That's my point. Perhaps you're just hung up on the word 'happy'. Change it then to 'content'.
- madamepsychosis 14y ago
  May I recommend Max Weber's "The Protestant Work Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism"?
- einhverfr 14y ago
  +1 One interesting feature of Indonesia where I am right now is that unlike any other nation I have ever been to, handicrafts are used for everyday things. If you remember, this is what Barak Obama's mother was studying when she moved here so many years ago. The fact that handicrafts are still valued, and that hand-woven (and decorated) tablecloths still decorate my mother-in-law's table, or that much of the furniture is hand-made (though this is sadly changing as Cheap Plastic Crap(TM) is replacing it) gives the country a sense of vibrancy that wouldn't exist otherwise. Even today, while mass-produced T-shirts (a major Indonesian export) are used for every-day wear, for particularly important gatherings, hand-dyed batik is still a status symbol every bit as much as hand-made suits are in the US (I have seen shirts sell in boutique markets for $500 USD!) What we are missing is quite frankly a sense of place. But on to your bit about the industrial revolution in England, let me suggest reading "The Servile State" by Hillaire Belloc (you can find a PDF on-line for free since it is out of copyright). He suggests that the industrial revolution, which began in England, occurred specifically because of Protestant efforts to get peasants off their land, and thus unable to earn a living other than working in the factory. While his writing style is very early 20th century, his views on history and slavery are backed solidly by everything I have ever studied directly and while the book is a sort of cult classic for Libertarians, it is hard to see why since the book is as uncomfortable with liberal capitalism as it is with socialism.

by roel_v 14y ago

vacri 14y ago

Boil away. I also hate the "aren't they quaint" crowd, who think it's a shame that third-worlders buy mass-produced t-shirts these days. But how many cultures were as driven by the need for pure wealth as Europeans were? If it's a 'human trait', why do we see broad technological development in only several areas? I mean, hell, if your argument is "Folks in Puno were scared that their house might sink", let me counter with "Fuck it was hard for the masses in England during the Industrial Revolution", and it was the wealthiest nation the world had ever seen to date. England was spurred to improve their lot so drastically because of culture, not innate human nature. That's my point. Perhaps you're just hung up on the word 'happy'. Change it then to 'content'.

madamepsychosis 14y ago
May I recommend Max Weber's "The Protestant Work Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism"?
einhverfr 14y ago
+1 One interesting feature of Indonesia where I am right now is that unlike any other nation I have ever been to, handicrafts are used for everyday things. If you remember, this is what Barak Obama's mother was studying when she moved here so many years ago. The fact that handicrafts are still valued, and that hand-woven (and decorated) tablecloths still decorate my mother-in-law's table, or that much of the furniture is hand-made (though this is sadly changing as Cheap Plastic Crap(TM) is replacing it) gives the country a sense of vibrancy that wouldn't exist otherwise. Even today, while mass-produced T-shirts (a major Indonesian export) are used for every-day wear, for particularly important gatherings, hand-dyed batik is still a status symbol every bit as much as hand-made suits are in the US (I have seen shirts sell in boutique markets for $500 USD!) What we are missing is quite frankly a sense of place. But on to your bit about the industrial revolution in England, let me suggest reading "The Servile State" by Hillaire Belloc (you can find a PDF on-line for free since it is out of copyright). He suggests that the industrial revolution, which began in England, occurred specifically because of Protestant efforts to get peasants off their land, and thus unable to earn a living other than working in the factory. While his writing style is very early 20th century, his views on history and slavery are backed solidly by everything I have ever studied directly and while the book is a sort of cult classic for Libertarians, it is hard to see why since the book is as uncomfortable with liberal capitalism as it is with socialism.