4 ms·

It can't very well be "obstruction" if they aren't empowered to do the search in the first place, can it? No, this is a disaster. Hyperbole aside, this is ind

by ajross 2y ago

It can't very well be "obstruction" if they aren't empowered to do the search in the first place, can it? No, this is a disaster. Hyperbole aside, this is indeed how democracy dies. Eventually this escalates to arresting more senior political enemies. And eventually the arbiter of whoever has the power to make and enforce those arrests ends up resting not with the elected government but in the law enforcement and military apparatus with the physical power to do so. Once your regime is based on the use of force, you end up beholden to the users of force. Every time. We used to be special. We aren't now.

linksnapzz 2y ago
As it turns out, hyperbole is not aside.
asdsadasdasd123 2y ago
[flagged]
- ty6853 2y ago
  Garcia could have been deported literally anywhere but el salvador as he had an active deportation order, and withholding only from El Salvador. They could have just dropped him in a barren reef in the middle of the Pacific and said good fucking luck, why they took him the one place he couldn't go evades all logic.
  - asdsadasdasd123 2y ago
    I think you have the wrong case; is Garcia also a domestic abuser?
    - ty6853 2y ago
      His wife claimed in a restraining order filing that he was one writing she was "punched" "scratched" and had her clothes forcibly ripped. No idea if he was one as she claimed the exact opposite of what she wrote on her GoFundMe donation page about how they needed money because he is such a great husband/father.
maxlybbert 2y ago
Immigration law is wildly different from what people expect. But it is the law and it has been held up in countless court cases. This weirdness is not new. I think most of the weirdness comes from the fact that entering the country illegally, or remaining in the country illegally can be crimes, but they can also be civil offenses. “Civil” means no jail time, but people still get deported without going to criminal court. “Civil” also means “doesn’t have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt,” and “no constitutional right to a public defender.” Immigration law tries to provide limited forms of some of those ideas. There’s a kind of bail system, and people have a right to be represented by attorneys, but no right for those attorneys to be paid by the government. There is somebody referred to as an immigration judge, and they have a federal job, but they aren’t regular federal judges. It’s possible to appeal an immigration court’s decision to a federal district court to get into the legal system we’re more familiar with. * https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/IF11536 https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/IF11536 * https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/IF12158 https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/IF12158 * https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/LSB10559 https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/LSB10559 * https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/LSB10362 https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/LSB10362
- exe34 2y ago
  apparently immigration law infringement only goes to court if you're trying to stop them now - if they want to send you to a concentration camp, there's no right to due process.
  - maxlybbert 2y ago
    The Alien Enemy Act is actually an incredibly old law (i.e., it’s not a new development). What is new is attempting to use it based on a declaration that there’s been a non-military invasion ( https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/LSB11269 https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/LSB11269 ). I think it’s pretty clear that the Supreme Court is going to eventually strike that down, but the courts can only act in response to the cases they get, and only answer specific legal questions at different phases of those cases. But about a month ago, the Court did rule people who the government wanted to send to El Salvador have a due process right to challenge that decision in regular federal court as a habeas corpus proceeding ( https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24a931_2c83.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24a931_2c83.pdf ). They later issued an order that the people covered by the original ruling cannot be deported based on the Alien Enemy Act until further notice ( https://www.supremecourt.gov/orders/courtorders/041925zr_c18e.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/orders/courtorders/041925zr_c18... ).
Jensson 2y ago
> It can't very well be "obstruction" if they aren't empowered to do the search in the first place, can it? The allegation is that she obstructed an arrest by changing standard procedure, she wasn't arrested for obstructing search that part was fine. The ICE agents were legally allowed to wait outside and arrest the man as he stepped out, the judge leading the man out the backdoor after she learned ICE agents were waiting at the front is very hard to defend as anything but obstruction of arrest.
- ajross 2y ago
  > obstructed an arrest by changing standard procedure Which sounds awfully novel to me. You really want to tear down the structure of democracy over this kind of nitpicking on "procedure"? I remain horrified that people I really thought were normal Americans are willing to burn it all down just so they don't have to hear Spanish spoken in their doctor's office.
  - Jensson 2y ago
    > I remain horrified that people I really thought were normal Americans are willing to burn it all down just so they don't have to hear Spanish spoken in their doctor's office. Calling people who are against illegal immigration "racist" just makes it worse. A majority of people are fine with legal migration, a supermajority of people think illegal immigrants should get deported. So no, the issue most see isn't that they don't like Spanish, the issue is that they are here illegally.
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      As far as the Republican Party, statistics don’t back up the idea they are okay with legal immigration. https://globalaffairs.org/research/public-opinion-survey/republican-concerns-over-immigration-hit-all-time-high https://globalaffairs.org/research/public-opinion-survey/rep... In Florida, Desantis is so against legal migration he is trying to relax child labor laws. Even now there is a share of Republicans especially in southern states who are still against interracial marriages. https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/interracial-marriage-supreme-loving/tnamp/ https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/interracial-marri...
switch007 2y ago
> We used to be special. Oh. Do expand.

by ajross 2y ago

linksnapzz 2y ago

As it turns out, hyperbole is not aside.

asdsadasdasd123 2y ago

[flagged]

ty6853 2y ago
Garcia could have been deported literally anywhere but el salvador as he had an active deportation order, and withholding only from El Salvador. They could have just dropped him in a barren reef in the middle of the Pacific and said good fucking luck, why they took him the one place he couldn't go evades all logic.
- asdsadasdasd123 2y ago
  I think you have the wrong case; is Garcia also a domestic abuser?
  - ty6853 2y ago
    His wife claimed in a restraining order filing that he was one writing she was "punched" "scratched" and had her clothes forcibly ripped. No idea if he was one as she claimed the exact opposite of what she wrote on her GoFundMe donation page about how they needed money because he is such a great husband/father.

maxlybbert 2y ago

Immigration law is wildly different from what people expect. But it is the law and it has been held up in countless court cases. This weirdness is not new. I think most of the weirdness comes from the fact that entering the country illegally, or remaining in the country illegally can be crimes, but they can also be civil offenses. “Civil” means no jail time, but people still get deported without going to criminal court. “Civil” also means “doesn’t have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt,” and “no constitutional right to a public defender.” Immigration law tries to provide limited forms of some of those ideas. There’s a kind of bail system, and people have a right to be represented by attorneys, but no right for those attorneys to be paid by the government. There is somebody referred to as an immigration judge, and they have a federal job, but they aren’t regular federal judges. It’s possible to appeal an immigration court’s decision to a federal district court to get into the legal system we’re more familiar with. * https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/IF11536 https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/IF11536 * https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/IF12158 https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/IF12158 * https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/LSB10559 https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/LSB10559 * https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/LSB10362 https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/LSB10362

exe34 2y ago
apparently immigration law infringement only goes to court if you're trying to stop them now - if they want to send you to a concentration camp, there's no right to due process.
- maxlybbert 2y ago
  The Alien Enemy Act is actually an incredibly old law (i.e., it’s not a new development). What is new is attempting to use it based on a declaration that there’s been a non-military invasion ( https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/LSB11269 https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/LSB11269 ). I think it’s pretty clear that the Supreme Court is going to eventually strike that down, but the courts can only act in response to the cases they get, and only answer specific legal questions at different phases of those cases. But about a month ago, the Court did rule people who the government wanted to send to El Salvador have a due process right to challenge that decision in regular federal court as a habeas corpus proceeding ( https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24a931_2c83.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24a931_2c83.pdf ). They later issued an order that the people covered by the original ruling cannot be deported based on the Alien Enemy Act until further notice ( https://www.supremecourt.gov/orders/courtorders/041925zr_c18e.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/orders/courtorders/041925zr_c18... ).

Jensson 2y ago

> It can't very well be "obstruction" if they aren't empowered to do the search in the first place, can it? The allegation is that she obstructed an arrest by changing standard procedure, she wasn't arrested for obstructing search that part was fine. The ICE agents were legally allowed to wait outside and arrest the man as he stepped out, the judge leading the man out the backdoor after she learned ICE agents were waiting at the front is very hard to defend as anything but obstruction of arrest.

ajross 2y ago
> obstructed an arrest by changing standard procedure Which sounds awfully novel to me. You really want to tear down the structure of democracy over this kind of nitpicking on "procedure"? I remain horrified that people I really thought were normal Americans are willing to burn it all down just so they don't have to hear Spanish spoken in their doctor's office.
- Jensson 2y ago
  > I remain horrified that people I really thought were normal Americans are willing to burn it all down just so they don't have to hear Spanish spoken in their doctor's office. Calling people who are against illegal immigration "racist" just makes it worse. A majority of people are fine with legal migration, a supermajority of people think illegal immigrants should get deported. So no, the issue most see isn't that they don't like Spanish, the issue is that they are here illegally.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    As far as the Republican Party, statistics don’t back up the idea they are okay with legal immigration. https://globalaffairs.org/research/public-opinion-survey/republican-concerns-over-immigration-hit-all-time-high https://globalaffairs.org/research/public-opinion-survey/rep... In Florida, Desantis is so against legal migration he is trying to relax child labor laws. Even now there is a share of Republicans especially in southern states who are still against interracial marriages. https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/interracial-marriage-supreme-loving/tnamp/ https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/interracial-marri...

switch007 2y ago

> We used to be special. Oh. Do expand.