5 ms·

Democratic states really need to start disallowing federal agents to operate within their borders and band together. Activate their respective national guards

Democratic states really need to start disallowing federal agents to operate within their borders and band together. Activate their respective national guards and make it happen. Yes, that means defying federal law. Yes that means exactly the consequences you want to draw from those actions. There is no other option at this point. The law is dead in the U.S.

baggy_trough 2y ago
[flagged]
- whoknowsidont 2y ago
  Please, list them. And be exceedingly honest, rational, and evidence-based about how effective those courses of actions would be.
  - nh23423fefe 2y ago
    Lol, before it was civil war, now its explain yourself point by point.
    - whoknowsidont 2y ago
      I stated a position and viewpoint, GP said "no that's not the only option." but didn't elucidate anything. So yeah, state something affirmative that can be responded to. And again, don't be disingenuous about how effective those options would be, this is not the same America we were in even 4 months ago.
      - nh23423fefe 2y ago
        I mean, the objects in your ontology don't even exist, "Democratic states" Just say you hate your fellow citizens and stop dressing up your weird violence?
  - ihsw 2y ago
    [dead]
- Der_Einzige 2y ago
  No it is not. You must force confrontation for Americans to realize the stakes.
kjkjadksj 2y ago
You are asking for an armed standoff. Last time that happened in this country, college students were slaughtered by government forces.
- whoknowsidont 2y ago
  I didn't ask or wish for us to get this point. But this is it, right here. Either there are consequences for violating the rule of law or we keep sliding further and further into despotism.
- digdugdirk 2y ago
  ... As opposed to the numerous civilians who are currently being killed by government forces without repercussion due to qualified immunity? Though having said that, I'm not sure if qualified immunity would apply in the same way to ICE officers. If that hasn't been legally determined yet (remember - ICE didn't exist before 9/11, and legal determinations take time), and looking at how ICE is currently operating with impunity in plain clothes and unmarked vehicles... Things will get much worse than Kent State before they get better.
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  Depends a bit on your politics. https://www.npr.org/2024/06/20/nx-s1-4966725/a-decade-after-armed-standoff-the-bundys-appear-to-be-above-the-law https://www.npr.org/2024/06/20/nx-s1-4966725/a-decade-after-... > Ten years after staging an armed standoff with federal agents on his Nevada ranch, Cliven Bundy remains free. As does his son Ammon, despite an active warrant for Ammon from Idaho related to a harassment lawsuit.
  - derektank 2y ago
    People also died during the occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Oregon, which was an extension of the Bundy standoff. I think it's fair to say that these are kinds of showdowns between federal and state/local forces are fraught with danger for those involved.
- int_19h 2y ago
hexis 2y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
_mlbt 2y ago
Why are deportations of illegal immigrants bad? Come here legally and be properly vetted. The law is dead if states defy it by refusing to allow federal agents to enforce immigration law. This whole stance is absolute madness.
- whoknowsidont 2y ago
  I don't think anyone has that position, so not sure what you're responding to.
- eli_gottlieb 2y ago
  Nothing wrong with deporting illegal immigrants through legal channels that allow for due process and follow the rulings of immigration courts. Something very wrong with sending deportation notices or trying to sic immigration enforcement on American citizens.
  - _mlbt 2y ago
    > Something very wrong with sending deportation notices or trying to sic immigration enforcement on American citizens. I must have missed that, when did that happen?
    - alistairSH 2y ago
      It's been all over the news. Here's one incident: https://www.cnn.com/2025/04/17/us/lopez-gomez-citizen-detained-ice-florida/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2025/04/17/us/lopez-gomez-citizen-detain...
      - _mlbt 2y ago
        Thank you, I hadn’t come across this news story yet! Believe it or not, I just double checked and it’s not in my Apple News feed at all. It sounds like there was a language barrier and he misidentified himself as being in the country illegally. That’s very unfortunate that he was detained for that misunderstanding.
ihsw 2y ago
[dead]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
kansface 2y ago
No, absolutely not. Trump would federalize the national guard as did Eisenhower, Kennedy, and Johnson and charge the governors with treason. You advocate for de facto succession of the states - we settled that matter with blood last time. The next time will be far worse. The rule of law does not prohibit bad arrests nor can it. The rule of law provides the opportunity for remedy after the fact.
- fzeroracer 2y ago
  When the federal government is actively hostile towards the states then the only recourse is going to be secession. > The rule of law does not prohibit bad arrests nor can it. The rule of law provides the opportunity for remedy after the fact. In a world where you and I could be renditioned to a foreign country and thrown into slave labor by the government simply acting fast enough as to maneuver around the court then there is no rule of law and there is no remedy.
  - prepend 2y ago
    That’s not really a viable recourse as it will result in that state being force ably retained in the union. I think a better remedy is to work within the laws of the country and to elect different federal representatives (president, senator, house representatives). Secession would definitely be worse for any state attempting it.
- whoknowsidont 2y ago
  How are you or anyone else going to remedy anything when you're half a world away, with no access to anyone let alone _anything_ outside your death camp? Absolutely yes. This needs to stop right here, and the consequences for violating the rule of law, for violating due process, for violating human rights, must be real.
  - kansface 2y ago
    You advance civil war as the remedy for the hypothetical. I’m squarely with Lincoln on the matter.
kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
Every public official in every state has sworn an oath to uphold the constitution. Willfully ignoring that oath whenever it suits them is not a faithful commission of their duties. While trampling on civil rights is a problem so is harboring known, convicted felons. If Wisteguens Charles had been deported in 2022, some of his future crimes wouldn't have happened. Instead we have people falling over themselves to have sympathy for the worst elements of society and ignoring the oath they made to uphold the law. That doesn't justify twisting the law into a tool for cruelty but is no better to arbitrarily ignore it either.
- whoknowsidont 2y ago
  No one was harboring anything. Also, have a quote: “The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.” - H.L. Mencken
- dragonwriter 2y ago
  > Every public official in every state has sworn an oath to uphold the constitution. "...against all enemies, foreign and domestic." (I'm quite aware, having taken -- and signed -- that oath many times.) That includes a federal executive that is repeatedly and consistently violating due process, engaging in the slave trade, exceeding Constitutional powers by bad-faith invocation of war powers with no actual war, and violating the first amendment by retaliating against unwelcome political speech in the context of and under the pretext of immigration enforcement.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- thrance 2y ago
  The contract has been violated, the federal government is already acting extra-constitutionally.
- kristjansson 2y ago
  > sympathy for the worst elements of society For people _alleged_ to be among the worst elements of society. If they're that bad, try them, get your slam-dunk conviction, and jail them here. Deportation does not annihilate a person, or shift them to another astral plane, it moves them a few dozen or hundred or thousand miles away. The counterfactual for 'if so-and-so was deported' is unknowable. They might have just walked back in the following week.

baggy_trough 2y ago

[flagged]

whoknowsidont 2y ago
Please, list them. And be exceedingly honest, rational, and evidence-based about how effective those courses of actions would be.
- nh23423fefe 2y ago
  Lol, before it was civil war, now its explain yourself point by point.
  - whoknowsidont 2y ago
    I stated a position and viewpoint, GP said "no that's not the only option." but didn't elucidate anything. So yeah, state something affirmative that can be responded to. And again, don't be disingenuous about how effective those options would be, this is not the same America we were in even 4 months ago.
    - nh23423fefe 2y ago
      I mean, the objects in your ontology don't even exist, "Democratic states" Just say you hate your fellow citizens and stop dressing up your weird violence?
- ihsw 2y ago
  [dead]
Der_Einzige 2y ago
No it is not. You must force confrontation for Americans to realize the stakes.

kjkjadksj 2y ago

You are asking for an armed standoff. Last time that happened in this country, college students were slaughtered by government forces.

whoknowsidont 2y ago
I didn't ask or wish for us to get this point. But this is it, right here. Either there are consequences for violating the rule of law or we keep sliding further and further into despotism.
digdugdirk 2y ago
... As opposed to the numerous civilians who are currently being killed by government forces without repercussion due to qualified immunity? Though having said that, I'm not sure if qualified immunity would apply in the same way to ICE officers. If that hasn't been legally determined yet (remember - ICE didn't exist before 9/11, and legal determinations take time), and looking at how ICE is currently operating with impunity in plain clothes and unmarked vehicles... Things will get much worse than Kent State before they get better.
ceejayoz 2y ago
Depends a bit on your politics. https://www.npr.org/2024/06/20/nx-s1-4966725/a-decade-after-armed-standoff-the-bundys-appear-to-be-above-the-law https://www.npr.org/2024/06/20/nx-s1-4966725/a-decade-after-... > Ten years after staging an armed standoff with federal agents on his Nevada ranch, Cliven Bundy remains free. As does his son Ammon, despite an active warrant for Ammon from Idaho related to a harassment lawsuit.
- derektank 2y ago
  People also died during the occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Oregon, which was an extension of the Bundy standoff. I think it's fair to say that these are kinds of showdowns between federal and state/local forces are fraught with danger for those involved.
int_19h 2y ago

hexis 2y ago

[flagged]

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

_mlbt 2y ago

Why are deportations of illegal immigrants bad? Come here legally and be properly vetted. The law is dead if states defy it by refusing to allow federal agents to enforce immigration law. This whole stance is absolute madness.

whoknowsidont 2y ago
I don't think anyone has that position, so not sure what you're responding to.
eli_gottlieb 2y ago
Nothing wrong with deporting illegal immigrants through legal channels that allow for due process and follow the rulings of immigration courts. Something very wrong with sending deportation notices or trying to sic immigration enforcement on American citizens.
- _mlbt 2y ago
  > Something very wrong with sending deportation notices or trying to sic immigration enforcement on American citizens. I must have missed that, when did that happen?
  - alistairSH 2y ago
    It's been all over the news. Here's one incident: https://www.cnn.com/2025/04/17/us/lopez-gomez-citizen-detained-ice-florida/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2025/04/17/us/lopez-gomez-citizen-detain...
    - _mlbt 2y ago
      Thank you, I hadn’t come across this news story yet! Believe it or not, I just double checked and it’s not in my Apple News feed at all. It sounds like there was a language barrier and he misidentified himself as being in the country illegally. That’s very unfortunate that he was detained for that misunderstanding.

ihsw 2y ago

[dead]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

kansface 2y ago

No, absolutely not. Trump would federalize the national guard as did Eisenhower, Kennedy, and Johnson and charge the governors with treason. You advocate for de facto succession of the states - we settled that matter with blood last time. The next time will be far worse. The rule of law does not prohibit bad arrests nor can it. The rule of law provides the opportunity for remedy after the fact.

fzeroracer 2y ago
When the federal government is actively hostile towards the states then the only recourse is going to be secession. > The rule of law does not prohibit bad arrests nor can it. The rule of law provides the opportunity for remedy after the fact. In a world where you and I could be renditioned to a foreign country and thrown into slave labor by the government simply acting fast enough as to maneuver around the court then there is no rule of law and there is no remedy.
- prepend 2y ago
  That’s not really a viable recourse as it will result in that state being force ably retained in the union. I think a better remedy is to work within the laws of the country and to elect different federal representatives (president, senator, house representatives). Secession would definitely be worse for any state attempting it.
whoknowsidont 2y ago
How are you or anyone else going to remedy anything when you're half a world away, with no access to anyone let alone _anything_ outside your death camp? Absolutely yes. This needs to stop right here, and the consequences for violating the rule of law, for violating due process, for violating human rights, must be real.
- kansface 2y ago
  You advance civil war as the remedy for the hypothetical. I’m squarely with Lincoln on the matter.

kevin_thibedeau 2y ago

Every public official in every state has sworn an oath to uphold the constitution. Willfully ignoring that oath whenever it suits them is not a faithful commission of their duties. While trampling on civil rights is a problem so is harboring known, convicted felons. If Wisteguens Charles had been deported in 2022, some of his future crimes wouldn't have happened. Instead we have people falling over themselves to have sympathy for the worst elements of society and ignoring the oath they made to uphold the law. That doesn't justify twisting the law into a tool for cruelty but is no better to arbitrarily ignore it either.

whoknowsidont 2y ago
No one was harboring anything. Also, have a quote: “The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.” - H.L. Mencken
dragonwriter 2y ago
> Every public official in every state has sworn an oath to uphold the constitution. "...against all enemies, foreign and domestic." (I'm quite aware, having taken -- and signed -- that oath many times.) That includes a federal executive that is repeatedly and consistently violating due process, engaging in the slave trade, exceeding Constitutional powers by bad-faith invocation of war powers with no actual war, and violating the first amendment by retaliating against unwelcome political speech in the context of and under the pretext of immigration enforcement.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
thrance 2y ago
The contract has been violated, the federal government is already acting extra-constitutionally.
kristjansson 2y ago
> sympathy for the worst elements of society For people _alleged_ to be among the worst elements of society. If they're that bad, try them, get your slam-dunk conviction, and jail them here. Deportation does not annihilate a person, or shift them to another astral plane, it moves them a few dozen or hundred or thousand miles away. The counterfactual for 'if so-and-so was deported' is unknowable. They might have just walked back in the following week.