5 ms·

Very exciting! Electric vehicles have the ability to be very simple, much simpler than an ICE. Although electric can't be 100% analog, I miss the old days when

Very exciting! Electric vehicles have the ability to be very simple, much simpler than an ICE. Although electric can't be 100% analog, I miss the old days when a car has no software updates, no telemetry, no privacy issues, no mandatory subscription for features.

the__alchemist 1y ago
Don't want or need analog: Just don't enshittify the digital! CAN bus is a great system; don't IoT it or use dark patterns.
- pnw 1y ago
  I doubt CAN bus will be around that much longer, I know several EV manufacturers are actively phasing it out. Yes, it was revolutionary in it's time but it's a 40 year old standard that doesn't have enough bandwidth for the requirements of modern cars, and it was designed before security was even a thought. It's also unnecessarily complex wiring that adds weight to the car. Even the updated FD standard is only 8 mbps, so it's barely enough for video from a backup camera.
  - the__alchemist 1y ago
    It's a tool that's more than sufficient for most things. Video isn't one of those, and it's a 2-wire bus, so I don't see what the wiring concern is!
    - pnw 1y ago
      As I understand it, newer systems like LVCS and Ethernet use less wire and smaller connectors. Apparently it can save up to 30% of the weight in a wiring harness which would be about 100 lbs. There was a thread on it on HN not long ago. Video for a backup camera is mandatory on new cars in the US and Europe, so it makes sense to use the same bus.
- AlotOfReading 1y ago
  God no, CAN is horrible and the horrors people working around its limitations have brought into the world are even worse.
  - the__alchemist 1y ago
    What limitations specifically are you referring to?
    - AlotOfReading 1y ago
      The packet size is a major one. The lack of larger packets leads to nonsense like the "freshness manager" in things like AUTOSAR's SecOC, or the addressing scheme. Every subsequent CAN extension has tried to rectify both of these in different ways and inevitably failed, which leads to the next layer up the networking stack reinventing the wheel badly. Eventually you end up with UDS.
      - the__alchemist 1y ago
        Yea, that 64-byte frame size. In practice, I've always seen it abstracted away into a layer on top, but if you're working low-level (e.g. implementing that layer), it's a pain. So, a given packet may be represented by multiple frames.
        rjsw 1y ago
        I hold a patent on the design of a hardware offload engine to hide the handling of multiple frames from a main CPU.
  - constantcrying 1y ago
    CAN is really great for what it is. It is one of the simplest ways to get N devices to talk to each other. Really simple and easily debuggable. Obviously it is too limiting for modern cars so it will get mostly dropped. It clearly is a great protocol though.
cjbgkagh 1y ago
While the processing is practically necessarily digital it is possible to build an analog of an analog system - which is to say a digital device that acts in very much the same way that an analog device would. I think many people are underestimating the mini revolution still going on in the quality and price of electronic components.
connicpu 1y ago
I don't mind too much if there's still microcontrollers in the car, but I'd really rather they didn't have internet connectivity. The only antenna should be for AM/FM radio.
- dylan604 1y ago
  AM is on its way out with EVs though. there's no reason that a car that has all of that internet connectivity cannot have the same features just without sending the telemetry. upgrades do not need to be OTA, and be upgraded through a USB or even bluetooth from a device. the only reason for it is that there's money to be made from that telemetry.
- baby_souffle 1y ago
  > The only antenna should be for AM/FM radio. And TPMS. And key-fob remote lock/unlock. And BTLE for BYO music / calls. > but I'd really rather they didn't have internet connectivity. This is the one big thing that has me leaning towards "used, 2015 or older" for my next car. With an EV, you really do want a way to specify how much power / when should be used for charging though; some "discounted" electric utility plans require being able to shed / schedule big loads on demand, too. If this vehicle doesn't have any screen, you need to use a phone or similar to configure all this. Yes, schedule data can be done over BTLE, but something big like an OTA update can not be (at least, practically). There's also a lot of value (for some people) in being able to change/monitor charge capacity from distances further away than what BTLE would support. If the modem could be toggled and there was a USB port for software updates, I'd be _thrilled_.
  - Eavolution 1y ago
    I've a petrol car so I don't really know, but what's stopping the power/timing controls from being buttons on the charger wall unit? Even a local network app I'd have no issue with, but I really don't want my car or charging unit on the internet.
    - connicpu 1y ago
patagonia 1y ago
Are they making any 100% analog ICE vehicles currently? This is just a consumer products issue. Sadly.
- bri3d 1y ago
  What do you mean by "analog?" It's not possible to make an "analog" vehicle of any kind due to regulation: * It would be impossible to pass modern car emissions standards without electronic engine control. * Backup cameras are mandatory, so you need an electronic pixel display somewhere. * Lane keeping is required in Europe as of 2022, so that's a suite of sensors and computer-steering as a requirement. * AEB will be required as of 2029 in the US, so that's a full electronic braking system (some form of pressure accumulator/source, solenoids/valves) and forward looking sensors (radar, lidar, visual, etc.).
  - RandallBrown 1y ago
    > Backup cameras are mandatory, so you need an electronic pixel display somewhere. I wonder if regulations would allow for a sort of periscope system. (Not that it would be practical.)
    - AlotOfReading 1y ago
      FMVSS does in the US, but it'd have to be very steampunk to meet all the requirements.
    - ksherlock 1y ago
      The specific regulation is here: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/part-571/section-571.111#p-571.111(S5.)(S5.5) https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/part-571/section-571.1... Nor practical but an analog system could probably meet the standard. --- Rearview image means a visual image, detected by means of a single source, of the area directly behind a vehicle that is provided in a single location to the vehicle operator and by means of indirect vision. Rear visibility system means the set of devices or components which together perform the function of producing the rearview image as required under this standard. --- 5.5 just says it needs to meet certain testing standards, start displaying within 2 seconds of backing up, and stop displaying when driving forward.

the__alchemist 1y ago

Don't want or need analog: Just don't enshittify the digital! CAN bus is a great system; don't IoT it or use dark patterns.

pnw 1y ago
I doubt CAN bus will be around that much longer, I know several EV manufacturers are actively phasing it out. Yes, it was revolutionary in it's time but it's a 40 year old standard that doesn't have enough bandwidth for the requirements of modern cars, and it was designed before security was even a thought. It's also unnecessarily complex wiring that adds weight to the car. Even the updated FD standard is only 8 mbps, so it's barely enough for video from a backup camera.
- the__alchemist 1y ago
  It's a tool that's more than sufficient for most things. Video isn't one of those, and it's a 2-wire bus, so I don't see what the wiring concern is!
  - pnw 1y ago
    As I understand it, newer systems like LVCS and Ethernet use less wire and smaller connectors. Apparently it can save up to 30% of the weight in a wiring harness which would be about 100 lbs. There was a thread on it on HN not long ago. Video for a backup camera is mandatory on new cars in the US and Europe, so it makes sense to use the same bus.
AlotOfReading 1y ago
God no, CAN is horrible and the horrors people working around its limitations have brought into the world are even worse.
- the__alchemist 1y ago
  What limitations specifically are you referring to?
  - AlotOfReading 1y ago
    The packet size is a major one. The lack of larger packets leads to nonsense like the "freshness manager" in things like AUTOSAR's SecOC, or the addressing scheme. Every subsequent CAN extension has tried to rectify both of these in different ways and inevitably failed, which leads to the next layer up the networking stack reinventing the wheel badly. Eventually you end up with UDS.
    - the__alchemist 1y ago
      Yea, that 64-byte frame size. In practice, I've always seen it abstracted away into a layer on top, but if you're working low-level (e.g. implementing that layer), it's a pain. So, a given packet may be represented by multiple frames.
      - rjsw 1y ago
        I hold a patent on the design of a hardware offload engine to hide the handling of multiple frames from a main CPU.
- constantcrying 1y ago
  CAN is really great for what it is. It is one of the simplest ways to get N devices to talk to each other. Really simple and easily debuggable. Obviously it is too limiting for modern cars so it will get mostly dropped. It clearly is a great protocol though.

cjbgkagh 1y ago

While the processing is practically necessarily digital it is possible to build an analog of an analog system - which is to say a digital device that acts in very much the same way that an analog device would. I think many people are underestimating the mini revolution still going on in the quality and price of electronic components.

connicpu 1y ago

I don't mind too much if there's still microcontrollers in the car, but I'd really rather they didn't have internet connectivity. The only antenna should be for AM/FM radio.

dylan604 1y ago
AM is on its way out with EVs though. there's no reason that a car that has all of that internet connectivity cannot have the same features just without sending the telemetry. upgrades do not need to be OTA, and be upgraded through a USB or even bluetooth from a device. the only reason for it is that there's money to be made from that telemetry.
baby_souffle 1y ago
> The only antenna should be for AM/FM radio. And TPMS. And key-fob remote lock/unlock. And BTLE for BYO music / calls. > but I'd really rather they didn't have internet connectivity. This is the one big thing that has me leaning towards "used, 2015 or older" for my next car. With an EV, you really do want a way to specify how much power / when should be used for charging though; some "discounted" electric utility plans require being able to shed / schedule big loads on demand, too. If this vehicle doesn't have any screen, you need to use a phone or similar to configure all this. Yes, schedule data can be done over BTLE, but something big like an OTA update can not be (at least, practically). There's also a lot of value (for some people) in being able to change/monitor charge capacity from distances further away than what BTLE would support. If the modem could be toggled and there was a USB port for software updates, I'd be _thrilled_.
- Eavolution 1y ago
  I've a petrol car so I don't really know, but what's stopping the power/timing controls from being buttons on the charger wall unit? Even a local network app I'd have no issue with, but I really don't want my car or charging unit on the internet.
  - connicpu 1y ago

patagonia 1y ago

Are they making any 100% analog ICE vehicles currently? This is just a consumer products issue. Sadly.

bri3d 1y ago
What do you mean by "analog?" It's not possible to make an "analog" vehicle of any kind due to regulation: * It would be impossible to pass modern car emissions standards without electronic engine control. * Backup cameras are mandatory, so you need an electronic pixel display somewhere. * Lane keeping is required in Europe as of 2022, so that's a suite of sensors and computer-steering as a requirement. * AEB will be required as of 2029 in the US, so that's a full electronic braking system (some form of pressure accumulator/source, solenoids/valves) and forward looking sensors (radar, lidar, visual, etc.).
- RandallBrown 1y ago
  > Backup cameras are mandatory, so you need an electronic pixel display somewhere. I wonder if regulations would allow for a sort of periscope system. (Not that it would be practical.)
  - AlotOfReading 1y ago
    FMVSS does in the US, but it'd have to be very steampunk to meet all the requirements.
  - ksherlock 1y ago
    The specific regulation is here: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/part-571/section-571.111#p-571.111(S5.)(S5.5) https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/part-571/section-571.1... Nor practical but an analog system could probably meet the standard. --- Rearview image means a visual image, detected by means of a single source, of the area directly behind a vehicle that is provided in a single location to the vehicle operator and by means of indirect vision. Rear visibility system means the set of devices or components which together perform the function of producing the rearview image as required under this standard. --- 5.5 just says it needs to meet certain testing standards, start displaying within 2 seconds of backing up, and stop displaying when driving forward.