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I agree it's not direct evidence, but it seems easier to believe some guy named Jesus was crucified by the romans than that he was made up for some indiscernibl
by deeThrow94 1y ago
I agree it's not direct evidence, but it seems easier to believe some guy named Jesus was crucified by the romans than that he was made up for some indiscernible reason. If you read the text as a historical depiction of a real (but not necessarily divine) figure, you can read a jewish eschatological preacher who predicted an imminent apocalypse. We can explain the formation of the bible entirely historically and note how the themes changed over the course of writing it to reflect a realization that an christian society had to organize when the apocalypse did not happen. This doesn't require taking the accounts of miracle as fact by any means, nor that the gospels were actually written by the apostles whose names adorn the text, etc. (In fact this can all be true if you're christian, though that may not be a popular sentiment, as faith without clear evidence is kind of central to the religion.)
Anyone who does want to press the question of the historicity of the existence of Jesus then needs to explain the motivations of the people who wrote the texts. That's a hard question to answer given that we don't know much about them or the contemporary christians. It seems easier to believe that the bible did originate in some concrete event surrounding the crucifixion of a jewish eschatological preacher causing trouble to the local romans than some inscrutable conspiracy to... what, accept suffering in this life but not the next? That seems like something that dovetails with state religion ala "opium of the masses"—genuinely soothing, but in so doing inherently works to maintain the status quo—not a place to start analyzing the motives of the authors as entirely fabricating the situation. And of course by the time it started gaining real momentum, the distinction between it and a popular political movement vanished rapidly. Why not see men taking advantage of a clear opportunity for social change to develop culture, much like they behave today in, say, business? Miracles themselves can be explained by psychosis, by intentional exaggeration, by unintended exaggeration, by some contemporary rhetorical flourish that might have been interpreted differently at the time, etc. I don't expect people to understand the faith and belief of others, but it shows a woeful lack of imagination, curiosity, and empathy to write off the billions of christians to have existed as irrational even if you can't take claims of divinity or afterlives or miracles themselves at face value in modern interpretation, especially compared to 2000 years ago.
To the contrary—most of our current institutions of rationality in the west were formed by people struggling with the very question of how to reconcile their christian worldviews with the empirical evidence of the world around them.
In my opinion, of course. I suspect many, if not the majority of, historians would agree that Jesus likely did exist and there was some event where he was crucified by the romans, and the people who witnessed this spread the news of such event.
- milesrout 1y agoThere is no question that Jesus existed and was crucified. Nobody seriously questions that. If we can't accept that happened then we can't accept most of history. It is one of the best-documented events of history and nobody has any reason or means to make it up.
- n4r9 1y agoBest-documented in history is a bit of a leap. There are the gospels (only three of which are contemporaneous) and a smattering of later writing. There probably was a religious teacher named Jesus that was crucified. But we're nowhere near as sure about that as we are that Caesar Augustus and Tiberius were the Roman emperors over that period.
- wizzwizz4 1y agoPaul is well-attested, we have good reason to believe the authenticity of most of his letters, and while (per the less-reliable Acts) he never met Jesus in person, he clearly believed that Jesus existed. So the invention of Jesus would've had to have happened quite early. Most wholly-fabricated myths (e.g. the Arthurian legend) originate hundreds of years after the events are alleged to have occurred: the basic plot of Jesus's life is attested within two decades after his death. If we're choosing evidentiary standards that let us doubt Jesus's existence, there are a lot of other historical figures whose existence is cast into doubt.
- n4r9 1y ago> there are a lot of other historical figures whose existence is cast into doubt Is that so bad? For example, I'm also not sure that Pythagoras existed - much less sure than I am for Socrates and Aristotle. I can appreciate the legendary figure of Pythagoras without that certainty. It feels more honest to say "actually my belief in their existence is around 60%".
- shadowgovt 1y agoIt's also interesting to juxtapose this with the recent history of Christianity and observe the within-well-documented-recorded-modern-record consequences of failed apocalypse cults to this day, because there are fascinating echoes. The Millerites believed Jesus would return in 1843-1844. When he did not, many fell away from the faith (which spiked to 50k-100,000 at its peak), but many came to different conclusions (that Miller had the date wrong but was fundamentally correct about its imminence, or that Miller's announcement of the date had an effect that changed the date, and some others). In consequence, there are now seven Christian sub-sects that trace their lineage back to The Great Disappointment, including the Seventh-day Adventists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventism has an interesting diagram of them.