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Is it disagree and commit? NSF is an "independent agency" [1] so if the job you were appointed to an confirmed by congress (senate) is at odds with the preside

Is it disagree and commit? NSF is an "independent agency" [1] so if the job you were appointed to an confirmed by congress (senate) is at odds with the presidents desires I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be a problem for the president not you. Similar to all those inspector generals who just gave up when they were illegally fired. Literally your job is to prevent the president from corruption, how are you going to do that now? [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_agencies_of_the_United_States_federal_government#Examples_of_independent_agencies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_agencies_of_the_Un...

throwawaymaths 2y ago
Seems unconstitutional for congress to be able to create a regulatory agency fully outside of the executive's control, as who will check the congress's power? Appointment and confirmation exists so both branches must assent to all officers of then government
- lelandfe 2y ago
  > who will check the congress's power The judiciary. E.g Bowsher v. Synar
  - sanderjd 2y ago
    Yeah this is a silly argument. The check on the actions of independent agencies is the same as the check on the actions of all agencies. The executive obviously isn't a check on the actions of executive agencies...
- wavefunction 2y ago
  The Judicial Branch is supposed to provide oversight over the Executive and Legislative Branch.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- vharuck 2y ago
  Bills also require the president to sign them, though a supermajority of Congress could override the veto.
- const_cast 2y ago
  It's not unconstitutional, it's already been done and the supreme court says it's fine. They decide what is and is not constitutional, not you. And, contrary to what Internet armchair "textualists" will proclaim, most of the constitution is up for interpretation and actually quite vague. We've been debating the constitution since the moment we lifted the pen. Or, er, quill. Have some humility.
rahimnathwani 2y ago
The US has three branches of government. If you believe the NSF is independent then you are implicitly agreeing with those who claim there is a fourth 'deep state' branch of government that operates without accountability. Separately: I cited the law that says the president can fire the head of the NSF. So I'm not sure why you'd conclude that any disagreement would be a problem for the president.
- sanderjd 2y ago
  Nah, people have got to stop buying into this unitary executive stuff! Independent agencies have oversight and accountability. Congress can do whatever they want with them whenever they want. I think it's imminently reasonable to say that agencies shouldn't be independent of the executive, and that's the default if the legislation passed by Congress (and signed by the current executive!) doesn't specify otherwise. But Congress should, and I believe does, have the power to set things up otherwise.
  - fluidcruft 2y ago
    I agree but only to the point that an independent agency setup by Congress exercises powers granted Congress by the Constitution and does not conflict with powers explicitly granted to other branches. (And it's pretty unclear to me how the NSF, which is ultimately a method for Congress to spend money, could relate to any Executive powers)
    - sanderjd 2y ago
      Yeah that's the thing, what powers are even granted directly to the executive by the text? It seems to me that the whole unitary executive theory is based on the clause "The executive Power shall be vested in a President", where "the executive power" is never well defined.
      - fluidcruft 2y ago
        The President commands the military, negotiates treaties, nominates various officials for confirmation. Probably the most leeway relates to being called to ensure laws are faithfully executed. So it seems reasonable the Executive can police independent agencies to ensure they operate as authorized by law, but I don't see how that challenges the establishment or existence of lawful independent agencies. NSF is one thing but say an independent agency that does things like negotiate treaties or command the military or nominate Supreme Court justices should be off the table (But on the other hand, theoretically the Executive should be able to voluntarily authorize legislation that enables those things if they wanted to. Just saying I can see cooperation possible but a veto override probably won't work to force it on an unwilling Executive).

throwawaymaths 2y ago

Seems unconstitutional for congress to be able to create a regulatory agency fully outside of the executive's control, as who will check the congress's power? Appointment and confirmation exists so both branches must assent to all officers of then government

lelandfe 2y ago
> who will check the congress's power The judiciary. E.g Bowsher v. Synar
- sanderjd 2y ago
  Yeah this is a silly argument. The check on the actions of independent agencies is the same as the check on the actions of all agencies. The executive obviously isn't a check on the actions of executive agencies...
wavefunction 2y ago
The Judicial Branch is supposed to provide oversight over the Executive and Legislative Branch.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
vharuck 2y ago
Bills also require the president to sign them, though a supermajority of Congress could override the veto.
const_cast 2y ago
It's not unconstitutional, it's already been done and the supreme court says it's fine. They decide what is and is not constitutional, not you. And, contrary to what Internet armchair "textualists" will proclaim, most of the constitution is up for interpretation and actually quite vague. We've been debating the constitution since the moment we lifted the pen. Or, er, quill. Have some humility.

rahimnathwani 2y ago

The US has three branches of government. If you believe the NSF is independent then you are implicitly agreeing with those who claim there is a fourth 'deep state' branch of government that operates without accountability. Separately: I cited the law that says the president can fire the head of the NSF. So I'm not sure why you'd conclude that any disagreement would be a problem for the president.

sanderjd 2y ago
Nah, people have got to stop buying into this unitary executive stuff! Independent agencies have oversight and accountability. Congress can do whatever they want with them whenever they want. I think it's imminently reasonable to say that agencies shouldn't be independent of the executive, and that's the default if the legislation passed by Congress (and signed by the current executive!) doesn't specify otherwise. But Congress should, and I believe does, have the power to set things up otherwise.
- fluidcruft 2y ago
  I agree but only to the point that an independent agency setup by Congress exercises powers granted Congress by the Constitution and does not conflict with powers explicitly granted to other branches. (And it's pretty unclear to me how the NSF, which is ultimately a method for Congress to spend money, could relate to any Executive powers)
  - sanderjd 2y ago
    Yeah that's the thing, what powers are even granted directly to the executive by the text? It seems to me that the whole unitary executive theory is based on the clause "The executive Power shall be vested in a President", where "the executive power" is never well defined.
    - fluidcruft 2y ago
      The President commands the military, negotiates treaties, nominates various officials for confirmation. Probably the most leeway relates to being called to ensure laws are faithfully executed. So it seems reasonable the Executive can police independent agencies to ensure they operate as authorized by law, but I don't see how that challenges the establishment or existence of lawful independent agencies. NSF is one thing but say an independent agency that does things like negotiate treaties or command the military or nominate Supreme Court justices should be off the table (But on the other hand, theoretically the Executive should be able to voluntarily authorize legislation that enables those things if they wanted to. Just saying I can see cooperation possible but a veto override probably won't work to force it on an unwilling Executive).