7 ms·

I noticed this the other day when I installed VSCodium on my new Windows box. I had a functional setup for one day, then the next day I couldn't install a langu

by fr4nkr 1y ago

I noticed this the other day when I installed VSCodium on my new Windows box. I had a functional setup for one day, then the next day I couldn't install a language extension I direly needed. It's left a very sour taste in my mouth. I've used Emacs for ages and despite being a much more niche editor, it's never been so hard-dependent on centralized repositories, and the centralized repositories it does have (ELPA/MELPA) are apparently a lot more reliable than OpenVSX. Installing Emacs packages manually from source is a breeze, doing so with VSC is masochistic. VSC is not really "open source" in any meaningful sense. It is just plainly unusable if you don't do things the way Microsoft wants you to. I do respect the VSCodium devs for trying to make VSC more properly open, but it does feel like a futile effort.

bogwog 1y ago
For context, Open VSX is run by the Eclipse foundation, which also develops the Eclipse Theia editor, which is basically a clone of VS Code (not a fork, like VS Codium). The Open VSX registry is open source (https://github.com/eclipse/openvsx https://github.com/eclipse/openvsx) and self-hostable, although I have no experience with that. I assume it's possible to host your own instance with the extensions you want instead of relying on the free public instance. Personally I'm more of a Sublime guy, but people looking for an open VSC alternative should consider Theia over VSC forks. It seems like the smarter long term investment if you want to get out from Microsoft's control.
- bobajeff 1y ago
  Even though I've heard of Theia Editor before I don't think I've ever seriously looked at it until now. It honestly looks like a good alternative to vscode. (It basically looks like a straight up clone, which is good for me) I'll definitely give it a try.
- TiredOfLife 1y ago
  Theia is based on Microsoft Monaco editor. Its a fork with a different ui
  - Macha 1y ago
    I think if it was a distro like VSCodium, you could call it a fork. But Monaco is a small piece of VS Code. It's a text widget. A _nice_ text widget, but you can play with bare Monaco here: https://microsoft.github.io/monaco-editor/playground.html https://microsoft.github.io/monaco-editor/playground.html You could shove this widget alone into electron and call the result a text editor, and I mean, Notepad was basically this for the windows text entry component for years, but it's a long way away from VS Code, or from Theia.
eddythompson80 1y ago
I feel that you're conflating few concepts, hackability, "open source", single point of failure architectures. Yes, VSC is less hackable than emacs, but I don't think it's necessarily the same thing. VSC (and others like it) are going for a more streamlined "App Store" experience, while emacs is going for a more DIY/hackable style editor. You can always fetching the VSIX file and sideload it is if the "store" is down though. Yes, VSC is less "open source" than emacs. if "open sourceness" is a score out of 10 or something. Pretty sure RMS would argue linux is less "open source" than emacs too. Not sure why this is futile for the VSCodium devs. They are taking a dependency on a service for installing extensions. The solutions is more readonly mirrors for the official OpenVSX endpoint. If your main archlinux mirror is down, you don't cry about the centralized state of our life. You use a different mirror. You throw in 5 or 10 in case one or two are down. I understand why a company like Microsoft might want a more centralized service to distribute the extensions. But for an open source clone? is Microsoft also expected to create the mirror clone?
- teruakohatu 1y ago
  > is Microsoft also expected to create the mirror clone? Allowing open source VS Code (ie. VS Code you compiled from Microsoft’s repo) to access extensions would be enough. Nobody is asking Microsoft for more than basic access. It’s does not even require a code changes, just a policy change. Even Google allows Chrome forks to access the Chrome Store.
  - Macha 1y ago
    I do wonder if Manifest v3 caused a large jump in users moving to Brave or Vivaldi or whatever, if Google would keep that policy.
  - pdntspa 1y ago
    Not even a policy change, you update one file in AppData and you're in.
- fr4nkr 1y ago
  My point about VSC is that brands itself as "open source" when Microsoft clearly intends for it to have a proprietary, tightly controlled ecosystem. It's not just RMS-unapproved, it's practically a lie. You can use it as a FOSS editor, but only if you are willing to accept a vastly subpar experience. Oh, and they've started cracking down on people using their proprietary VSC plugins in derived editors, too. I expected it to be a little less convenient to leave Microsoft's beaten path. I did not expect it to be a massive waste of time. This is what I meant by futile. Not only is it apparently very brittle, it's missing large swaths of VSC's ecosystem. Hell, I don't even know if the extension I wanted is available on OpenVSX because it's still down! If Microsoft hadn't openwashed their product, I wouldn't care nearly as much. Besides, Emacs still provides a streamlined system for managing packages on top of being hackable. It even makes installing and upgrading packages straight from a Git repo easy. Sometimes you can have your cake and eat it too.
999900000999 1y ago
You can always clone the extensions repo and build locally. Should take 10 minutes at most I’m not sure how this could actually work without a centralized repo. If I’m going to use VSCode I’ll just use it, I don’t need to play with forks, etc
veidr 1y ago
It’s plenty open source — that is why all these forks exist! VS Code itself does not work without various propriety stuff, but that is a different thing. A large number of open-source projects work that way. If you don’t like the proprietary stuff, the recourse is to fork it, modify it, and implement the remaining stuff yourself.
- ezst 1y ago
  https://ghuntley.com/fracture/ https://ghuntley.com/fracture/ ; I'll just leave this here.
  - veidr 1y ago
    Yeah, I know all about that stuff. But nevertheless, you _can_ fork it. Is it the most awesome, selfless, altruistic version of open source? Clearly not. But is it better than being proprietary closed-source software? Well, that's a value judgement, so we can each decide that for ourselves. Personally, I think so, but maybe it depends. Regardless, though, it's open source, and if it weren't the software landscape would look very different. Cursor, Windsurf, etc. would presumably not be as far along as they are, because they'd have to invest in basic editor functionality. Among many other projects, both open-source and otherwise.
    - ezst 1y ago
      > Regardless, though, it's open source Some major bits and pieces of the base editor are, but little of what makes vscode into a usable productive tool (namely, the refined extensions and LSP implementations around it, i.e. what users come to expect when they install it in the first place) is open-source. vscode put a lot of marketing effort into being perceived as open-source so to buy sympathy from eventual users. Let's stop at "vscode is open-source in a very narrow and limited capacity, and thoroughly deceptive in its messaging". I would honestly love to see the result of a survey asking vscode users whether they think they are using an open-source product, and how much of that is actually verified based on the extensions being used.
tiahura 1y ago
Pointless was my thought after initially installing it years ago. Ok, I’m installing this open source “clean” version, just to install a bunch of MS proprietary spyware extensions? Why not just use the real thing?
- Hasnep 1y ago
  Nowadays there are good alternatives to some of the proprietary Microsoft extensions, I use the basedpyright extension on VSCodium and prefer it to Microsoft's proprietary Pylance. I've also heard good things about the clangd extension as an alternative to the C/C++ extension.
theanonymousone 1y ago
I have a failing CI/CD pipeline. I use a reproducible development setup based on Coder.com's Code Server..
blackoil 1y ago
The model is called Open Core, so is well understood so I am not sure what is causing this confusion. The editor is open source as evident from a dozen forks. The complete experience which includes extensions has closed source pieces which the forks won't access to. But OSS community can build replacement or other companies can provide alternatives. Just because pylance is available doesn't stop jetbrains/Google/OSS from creating an LS. Maybe no such exists as if now, but not from a technical blocker. Just no one created one.
arccy 1y ago
Microsoft has never been pro open source, yet so many devs fell for their marketing lies.
- genewitch 1y ago
  Walmart used to claim they supported US businesses. A lot of people remember the ads and the native ads, especially in southern California when Wal-Mart was trying to make inroads there in the late 90s. Walmart. Bringing back home. ™ The CEO even said the quiet part out loud in one of the commercials in the early 90s, roughly "we'll buy American products, unless they're lesser quality or more expensive" and trailed off, and the editors back then weren't as tuned in to corpo-speak or something. Of course the countries with more lax environmental regulations and worker protections will have a cheaper product; the entire thing was a sham from the beginning.
- wilsonnb3 1y ago
  Microsoft is pro open source, it's just that they use it as a means rather than an end which trips up a lot of people who view open source differently. Its a tool they use to encourage adoption of their developer tools and get people to spend more money in Azure, not a philosophical stance.

by fr4nkr 1y ago

bogwog 1y ago

For context, Open VSX is run by the Eclipse foundation, which also develops the Eclipse Theia editor, which is basically a clone of VS Code (not a fork, like VS Codium). The Open VSX registry is open source (https://github.com/eclipse/openvsx https://github.com/eclipse/openvsx) and self-hostable, although I have no experience with that. I assume it's possible to host your own instance with the extensions you want instead of relying on the free public instance. Personally I'm more of a Sublime guy, but people looking for an open VSC alternative should consider Theia over VSC forks. It seems like the smarter long term investment if you want to get out from Microsoft's control.

bobajeff 1y ago
Even though I've heard of Theia Editor before I don't think I've ever seriously looked at it until now. It honestly looks like a good alternative to vscode. (It basically looks like a straight up clone, which is good for me) I'll definitely give it a try.
TiredOfLife 1y ago
Theia is based on Microsoft Monaco editor. Its a fork with a different ui
- Macha 1y ago
  I think if it was a distro like VSCodium, you could call it a fork. But Monaco is a small piece of VS Code. It's a text widget. A _nice_ text widget, but you can play with bare Monaco here: https://microsoft.github.io/monaco-editor/playground.html https://microsoft.github.io/monaco-editor/playground.html You could shove this widget alone into electron and call the result a text editor, and I mean, Notepad was basically this for the windows text entry component for years, but it's a long way away from VS Code, or from Theia.

eddythompson80 1y ago

I feel that you're conflating few concepts, hackability, "open source", single point of failure architectures. Yes, VSC is less hackable than emacs, but I don't think it's necessarily the same thing. VSC (and others like it) are going for a more streamlined "App Store" experience, while emacs is going for a more DIY/hackable style editor. You can always fetching the VSIX file and sideload it is if the "store" is down though. Yes, VSC is less "open source" than emacs. if "open sourceness" is a score out of 10 or something. Pretty sure RMS would argue linux is less "open source" than emacs too. Not sure why this is futile for the VSCodium devs. They are taking a dependency on a service for installing extensions. The solutions is more readonly mirrors for the official OpenVSX endpoint. If your main archlinux mirror is down, you don't cry about the centralized state of our life. You use a different mirror. You throw in 5 or 10 in case one or two are down. I understand why a company like Microsoft might want a more centralized service to distribute the extensions. But for an open source clone? is Microsoft also expected to create the mirror clone?

teruakohatu 1y ago
> is Microsoft also expected to create the mirror clone? Allowing open source VS Code (ie. VS Code you compiled from Microsoft’s repo) to access extensions would be enough. Nobody is asking Microsoft for more than basic access. It’s does not even require a code changes, just a policy change. Even Google allows Chrome forks to access the Chrome Store.
- Macha 1y ago
  I do wonder if Manifest v3 caused a large jump in users moving to Brave or Vivaldi or whatever, if Google would keep that policy.
- pdntspa 1y ago
  Not even a policy change, you update one file in AppData and you're in.
fr4nkr 1y ago
My point about VSC is that brands itself as "open source" when Microsoft clearly intends for it to have a proprietary, tightly controlled ecosystem. It's not just RMS-unapproved, it's practically a lie. You can use it as a FOSS editor, but only if you are willing to accept a vastly subpar experience. Oh, and they've started cracking down on people using their proprietary VSC plugins in derived editors, too. I expected it to be a little less convenient to leave Microsoft's beaten path. I did not expect it to be a massive waste of time. This is what I meant by futile. Not only is it apparently very brittle, it's missing large swaths of VSC's ecosystem. Hell, I don't even know if the extension I wanted is available on OpenVSX because it's still down! If Microsoft hadn't openwashed their product, I wouldn't care nearly as much. Besides, Emacs still provides a streamlined system for managing packages on top of being hackable. It even makes installing and upgrading packages straight from a Git repo easy. Sometimes you can have your cake and eat it too.

999900000999 1y ago

You can always clone the extensions repo and build locally. Should take 10 minutes at most I’m not sure how this could actually work without a centralized repo. If I’m going to use VSCode I’ll just use it, I don’t need to play with forks, etc

veidr 1y ago

It’s plenty open source — that is why all these forks exist! VS Code itself does not work without various propriety stuff, but that is a different thing. A large number of open-source projects work that way. If you don’t like the proprietary stuff, the recourse is to fork it, modify it, and implement the remaining stuff yourself.

ezst 1y ago
https://ghuntley.com/fracture/ https://ghuntley.com/fracture/ ; I'll just leave this here.
- veidr 1y ago
  Yeah, I know all about that stuff. But nevertheless, you _can_ fork it. Is it the most awesome, selfless, altruistic version of open source? Clearly not. But is it better than being proprietary closed-source software? Well, that's a value judgement, so we can each decide that for ourselves. Personally, I think so, but maybe it depends. Regardless, though, it's open source, and if it weren't the software landscape would look very different. Cursor, Windsurf, etc. would presumably not be as far along as they are, because they'd have to invest in basic editor functionality. Among many other projects, both open-source and otherwise.
  - ezst 1y ago
    > Regardless, though, it's open source Some major bits and pieces of the base editor are, but little of what makes vscode into a usable productive tool (namely, the refined extensions and LSP implementations around it, i.e. what users come to expect when they install it in the first place) is open-source. vscode put a lot of marketing effort into being perceived as open-source so to buy sympathy from eventual users. Let's stop at "vscode is open-source in a very narrow and limited capacity, and thoroughly deceptive in its messaging". I would honestly love to see the result of a survey asking vscode users whether they think they are using an open-source product, and how much of that is actually verified based on the extensions being used.

tiahura 1y ago

Pointless was my thought after initially installing it years ago. Ok, I’m installing this open source “clean” version, just to install a bunch of MS proprietary spyware extensions? Why not just use the real thing?

Hasnep 1y ago
Nowadays there are good alternatives to some of the proprietary Microsoft extensions, I use the basedpyright extension on VSCodium and prefer it to Microsoft's proprietary Pylance. I've also heard good things about the clangd extension as an alternative to the C/C++ extension.

theanonymousone 1y ago

I have a failing CI/CD pipeline. I use a reproducible development setup based on Coder.com's Code Server..

blackoil 1y ago

The model is called Open Core, so is well understood so I am not sure what is causing this confusion. The editor is open source as evident from a dozen forks. The complete experience which includes extensions has closed source pieces which the forks won't access to. But OSS community can build replacement or other companies can provide alternatives. Just because pylance is available doesn't stop jetbrains/Google/OSS from creating an LS. Maybe no such exists as if now, but not from a technical blocker. Just no one created one.

arccy 1y ago

Microsoft has never been pro open source, yet so many devs fell for their marketing lies.

genewitch 1y ago
Walmart used to claim they supported US businesses. A lot of people remember the ads and the native ads, especially in southern California when Wal-Mart was trying to make inroads there in the late 90s. Walmart. Bringing back home. ™ The CEO even said the quiet part out loud in one of the commercials in the early 90s, roughly "we'll buy American products, unless they're lesser quality or more expensive" and trailed off, and the editors back then weren't as tuned in to corpo-speak or something. Of course the countries with more lax environmental regulations and worker protections will have a cheaper product; the entire thing was a sham from the beginning.
wilsonnb3 1y ago
Microsoft is pro open source, it's just that they use it as a means rather than an end which trips up a lot of people who view open source differently. Its a tool they use to encourage adoption of their developer tools and get people to spend more money in Azure, not a philosophical stance.