11 ms·

A Roman Gladiator and a Lion Met in Combat. Only One Walked Away

33 points by diodorus 1y ago

slater 1y ago
https://archive.ph/xni6k https://archive.ph/xni6k
gnabgib 1y ago
Paper: [Unique osteological evidence for human-animal gladiatorial combat in Roman Britain](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0319847 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...)
zabzonk 1y ago
Seems a bit weird to ship lions all the way to York, in the north of England, when local predators such as bears (wolves? killer beavers?) would have been more easily (?) available.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- RainyDayTmrw 1y ago
  Isn't that the point? To create a rare and exotic spectacle?
- dzdt 1y ago
  The point is to create a spectacle, something that wows the crowd. Exotic wildlife is better for that just by reason of being exotic. But a secondary point is to show the people the awesome power of the Roman state, with its immense continent-spanning logistics capabilities.
  - zabzonk 1y ago
    > with its immense continent-spanning logistics capabilities. So, a bit like Amazon? Ave Jeff! Must see if they have a lion at good price. This is an attempt at a joke, BTW.
    - ajb 1y ago
      FYI hn generally downvotes jokes, as it doesn't want to be like Reddit where there is often a flood of jokes and no discussion
  - tlb 1y ago
    "Are you not impressed?" Empires should spend part of their budget on impressing. The English lad who spent whole days schlepping a few bushels of turnips to the market would be thinking, "I should join the Empire and transport lions".
- forgotoldacc 1y ago
  Why ship a lion to the zoo when you can fill it with local animals like rats and pigeons?
  - jillesvangurp 1y ago
    Some zoo in China got caught doing that. https://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/16/world/asia/china-zoo-dog-lion/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/16/world/asia/china-zoo-dog-...
RcouF1uZ4gsC 1y ago
> However, the hip bite probably isn’t what killed 6DT19. “We think the individual was incapacitated in some way, and then the animal came along, bit and dragged the body away,” Dr. Thompson said. Sounds like a polite way to say he was eaten alive
- claiir 1y ago
  Likely not the case, given (1) the body was peri-mortem decapitated (by a human) and (2) apparent structural damage was limited to a single bite mark (on the ilium), with no signs of "taphonomic" damage (indicating limited soft tissue trauma)? [1] (1) > 6DT19 had been decapitated with a single cut between the second and third cervical vertebrae , delivered from behind. (2) > Additional [to the decapitation] peri-mortem trauma was present in the form of a series of small depressions on both sides of the pelvis [..] > Taphonomic damage alone is also unlikely due to the appearance and margins of the lesions, which are the same colour as the surrounding bone (this differs if the break is post-mortem; [56]), and the adherence of bony fragments at the injury site (which occurs when soft tissue is present) . [1]: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0319847 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
codr7 1y ago
Won't be long now, the level of violence in MMA can only keep people distracted for so long.
- morkalork 1y ago
  If scientists are going to clone a woolley mammoth then we may as well go full techno-dystopia and clone some sabretooth tigers to fight too.
- harimau777 1y ago
  Fun fact: Early in their history the UFC turned down a plan to have full contact stick fighting events because they felt that it was too violent. https://dogbrothers.com/ufc-letter/ https://dogbrothers.com/ufc-letter/
  - getlawgdon 1y ago
    Who needs a stick when you can just stand behind podiums and take turns slapping each other for Dana White's pleasure?
  - closewith 1y ago
    Too violent for pay-per-view, not inherently too violent. The letters shows admiration for the intensity of stickfighting.
- markus_zhang 1y ago
  I suspect underground competitions are already bloody enough.
claiir 1y ago
Actual paper: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0319847 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
cortesoft 1y ago
How do they know the lion walked away? Couldn't it have been "no one walked away"?
- LegionMammal978 1y ago
  If the lion had been mortally wounded by the man, it seems unlikely it would've found the time to gnaw on his bones.
  - xaldir 1y ago
    I doubt that. Big predators don't quit fights even when mortally wounded.
    - LegionMammal978 1y ago
      As the paper notes, when truly fighting, big cats tend to prefer attacking the head and neck of human targets. But the primary bite marks are on the man's pelvis: > Deaths caused by lions and tigers tend to result from trauma to the neck area, involving the crushing of soft tissue structures and fracturing of the vertebrae, causing suffocation. Both species use their weight to push down the victim, often also leaving extensive damage to the shoulders, arms and chest. Species such as leopards and jaguars focus on the head by puncturing or crushing the skull. [...] The bite marks on 6DT19 are located on the pelvis rather than neck and upper body. Lions and tigers have also been seen to drag their prey away, often by the legs, but lions have also been recorded as causing significant damage to the pelvis of their prey. [...] > It is proposed, based on the evidence from the archaeological, medical and forensic evidence, that the bite marks on 6DT19 derive from a large felid, such as a lion. The shape is entirely consistent with documented cases of large cat bite marks (such as those presented in [35,46]). The location solely on the pelvis suggests that they were not part of an attack per se, but rather the result of scavenging at around the time of death. The decapitation of this individual was likely either to put him out of his misery at the point of death, or for the sake of conforming to customary practice. So it was more likely dragging him away (before his dead or nearly-dead body was removed and beheaded), something I don't think it would bother with if it had been seriously wounded. Also, this was likely an execution, so I doubt the man would have had much in the way of weaponry to fight back.
fnord77 1y ago
what changed in the world that ended these types of death spectacles?
- lifestyleguru 1y ago
  > what changed in the world that ended these types of death spectacles? I'm afraid that the only thing stopping it are legal barriers to transport and hold such animals.
- gorfian_robot 1y ago
  lack of lions
  - patrulek 1y ago
    Lack of gladiators?
- ars 1y ago
  I think you should ask the reverse: What was unique about that time period that created these spectacles? Entertainment and fighting have always existed (and still do), but usually not to the death.
  - wqaatwt 1y ago
    > and still do), but usually not to the death It usually wasn’t to the death in ancient Rome either. Unless your were being executed. I don’t think that the violence part was unique in any way, Romans were the first commercialize it and scale it up to such an extent though.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
- somenameforme 1y ago
  Christianity. When Emperor Constantine converted Rome to Christianity, he began laying out various restrictions on the games including prohibiting it being used as a punishment or even as an option for criminals, forbade the branding of gladiators, and so forth. Emperor Honorius would then completely ban the games, which had already dwindled by then, in honor of the martyrdom of Saint Telemachus. [1] [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Telemachus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Telemachus
ur-whale 1y ago
https://archive.is/xni6k https://archive.is/xni6k
black_13 1y ago
[dead]
xaldir 1y ago
Could a gladiator win such a fight? I guess with a long reach weapon like a pilum, the gladiator may have a chance but it would be a hell of a fight. With a gladius or any other short range weapon, it's just a fancy execution.

33 points by diodorus 1y ago

https://archive.ph/xni6k https://archive.ph/xni6k

Paper: [Unique osteological evidence for human-animal gladiatorial combat in Roman Britain](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0319847 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...)

zabzonk 1y ago

Seems a bit weird to ship lions all the way to York, in the north of England, when local predators such as bears (wolves? killer beavers?) would have been more easily (?) available.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
RainyDayTmrw 1y ago
Isn't that the point? To create a rare and exotic spectacle?
dzdt 1y ago
The point is to create a spectacle, something that wows the crowd. Exotic wildlife is better for that just by reason of being exotic. But a secondary point is to show the people the awesome power of the Roman state, with its immense continent-spanning logistics capabilities.
- zabzonk 1y ago
  > with its immense continent-spanning logistics capabilities. So, a bit like Amazon? Ave Jeff! Must see if they have a lion at good price. This is an attempt at a joke, BTW.
  - ajb 1y ago
    FYI hn generally downvotes jokes, as it doesn't want to be like Reddit where there is often a flood of jokes and no discussion
- tlb 1y ago
  "Are you not impressed?" Empires should spend part of their budget on impressing. The English lad who spent whole days schlepping a few bushels of turnips to the market would be thinking, "I should join the Empire and transport lions".
forgotoldacc 1y ago
Why ship a lion to the zoo when you can fill it with local animals like rats and pigeons?
- jillesvangurp 1y ago
  Some zoo in China got caught doing that. https://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/16/world/asia/china-zoo-dog-lion/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/16/world/asia/china-zoo-dog-...

RcouF1uZ4gsC 1y ago

> However, the hip bite probably isn’t what killed 6DT19. “We think the individual was incapacitated in some way, and then the animal came along, bit and dragged the body away,” Dr. Thompson said. Sounds like a polite way to say he was eaten alive

claiir 1y ago
Likely not the case, given (1) the body was peri-mortem decapitated (by a human) and (2) apparent structural damage was limited to a single bite mark (on the ilium), with no signs of "taphonomic" damage (indicating limited soft tissue trauma)? [1] (1) > 6DT19 had been decapitated with a single cut between the second and third cervical vertebrae , delivered from behind. (2) > Additional [to the decapitation] peri-mortem trauma was present in the form of a series of small depressions on both sides of the pelvis [..] > Taphonomic damage alone is also unlikely due to the appearance and margins of the lesions, which are the same colour as the surrounding bone (this differs if the break is post-mortem; [56]), and the adherence of bony fragments at the injury site (which occurs when soft tissue is present) . [1]: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0319847 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

codr7 1y ago

Won't be long now, the level of violence in MMA can only keep people distracted for so long.

morkalork 1y ago
If scientists are going to clone a woolley mammoth then we may as well go full techno-dystopia and clone some sabretooth tigers to fight too.
harimau777 1y ago
Fun fact: Early in their history the UFC turned down a plan to have full contact stick fighting events because they felt that it was too violent. https://dogbrothers.com/ufc-letter/ https://dogbrothers.com/ufc-letter/
- getlawgdon 1y ago
  Who needs a stick when you can just stand behind podiums and take turns slapping each other for Dana White's pleasure?
- closewith 1y ago
  Too violent for pay-per-view, not inherently too violent. The letters shows admiration for the intensity of stickfighting.
markus_zhang 1y ago
I suspect underground competitions are already bloody enough.

claiir 1y ago

Actual paper: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0319847 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

cortesoft 1y ago

How do they know the lion walked away? Couldn't it have been "no one walked away"?

LegionMammal978 1y ago
If the lion had been mortally wounded by the man, it seems unlikely it would've found the time to gnaw on his bones.
- xaldir 1y ago
  I doubt that. Big predators don't quit fights even when mortally wounded.
  - LegionMammal978 1y ago
    As the paper notes, when truly fighting, big cats tend to prefer attacking the head and neck of human targets. But the primary bite marks are on the man's pelvis: > Deaths caused by lions and tigers tend to result from trauma to the neck area, involving the crushing of soft tissue structures and fracturing of the vertebrae, causing suffocation. Both species use their weight to push down the victim, often also leaving extensive damage to the shoulders, arms and chest. Species such as leopards and jaguars focus on the head by puncturing or crushing the skull. [...] The bite marks on 6DT19 are located on the pelvis rather than neck and upper body. Lions and tigers have also been seen to drag their prey away, often by the legs, but lions have also been recorded as causing significant damage to the pelvis of their prey. [...] > It is proposed, based on the evidence from the archaeological, medical and forensic evidence, that the bite marks on 6DT19 derive from a large felid, such as a lion. The shape is entirely consistent with documented cases of large cat bite marks (such as those presented in [35,46]). The location solely on the pelvis suggests that they were not part of an attack per se, but rather the result of scavenging at around the time of death. The decapitation of this individual was likely either to put him out of his misery at the point of death, or for the sake of conforming to customary practice. So it was more likely dragging him away (before his dead or nearly-dead body was removed and beheaded), something I don't think it would bother with if it had been seriously wounded. Also, this was likely an execution, so I doubt the man would have had much in the way of weaponry to fight back.

fnord77 1y ago

what changed in the world that ended these types of death spectacles?

lifestyleguru 1y ago
> what changed in the world that ended these types of death spectacles? I'm afraid that the only thing stopping it are legal barriers to transport and hold such animals.
gorfian_robot 1y ago
lack of lions
- patrulek 1y ago
  Lack of gladiators?
ars 1y ago
I think you should ask the reverse: What was unique about that time period that created these spectacles? Entertainment and fighting have always existed (and still do), but usually not to the death.
- wqaatwt 1y ago
  > and still do), but usually not to the death It usually wasn’t to the death in ancient Rome either. Unless your were being executed. I don’t think that the violence part was unique in any way, Romans were the first commercialize it and scale it up to such an extent though.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
somenameforme 1y ago
Christianity. When Emperor Constantine converted Rome to Christianity, he began laying out various restrictions on the games including prohibiting it being used as a punishment or even as an option for criminals, forbade the branding of gladiators, and so forth. Emperor Honorius would then completely ban the games, which had already dwindled by then, in honor of the martyrdom of Saint Telemachus. [1] [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Telemachus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Telemachus

ur-whale 1y ago

https://archive.is/xni6k https://archive.is/xni6k

black_13 1y ago

[dead]

xaldir 1y ago

Could a gladiator win such a fight? I guess with a long reach weapon like a pilum, the gladiator may have a chance but it would be a hell of a fight. With a gladius or any other short range weapon, it's just a fancy execution.