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> I believe Jesus also believed this Jesus predicted his death several times, most explicitly in Matthew 20:17–19. > Now Jesus, going up to Jerusalem, took th

by lurk2 2y ago

> I believe Jesus also believed this Jesus predicted his death several times, most explicitly in Matthew 20:17–19. > Now Jesus, going up to Jerusalem, took the twelve disciples aside on the road and said to them, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death, and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again.” - Matthew 20:17–19

alganet 2y ago
It is known that the specifics of the story were modified. The current text is kind of frozen by its own similarities to itself. The use of extracted quotes is probably a mistake. You have to find the same event in a lot of other books beyond Matthew to be able to find a tiny whiff of historical information, very faint, very difficult to do with translated versions.
- dmonitor 2y ago
  Luke 17:20-37 also seems to support the idea that Jesus was trying to tell people the kingdom was spiritual, not physical. The kingdom as a concept wasn't some novel idea, either. Jesus was claiming he was the fulfillment of the messianic prophecy in Judaism. He was reinterpreting the prophecy, though, as a spiritual rather than literal liberation. Tangential, but you can interpret the anti-christ in christian belief to bring the alleged kingdom, as a sort of anti-fulfillment of the prophecy.
  - alganet 2y ago
    All of these declared disputes in meaning, names and events is precisely what I am referring to. One could argue that Jesus is the book itself anthropomorphized, edited so many times by so many sinners (crossed), that whatever salvation was contained within (a prophecy, a guide, a story) is not there anymore. It only serves to spare those who changed and betrayed it (to support churches and beliefs not originally present in it). Thus, the book died. It is said that once it briefly was brought back to life. It is a reference from the New Testament to itself. Then it died again (once a living, thriving narrative of human history constantly being augmented, now unable to be that again, eternally locked in disputes and conflicted interpretations, thus, dead).
  - eli_gottlieb 2y ago
    The "Kingdom of Heaven" was not a contemporary concept in first-century CE Judaism, to my knowledge.
    - dmonitor 2y ago
      Not that term, but a Messiah that will establish / lead a powerful Jewish nation was
      - eli_gottlieb 2y ago
        Sure, but that was believed not only literally but very literally, as referring to the political liberation of the Jews from Roman rule.
- lurk2 2y ago
  > You have to find the same event in a lot of other books beyond Matthew to be able to find a tiny whiff of historical information The same event is described in the book of Mark (10:32-34) and the book of Luke (18:31-34). There are two other predictions that appear in all three books: Matthew 16:21-23 Mark 8:31-33 Luke 9:21-22 Matthew 17:22-23 Mark 9:30-32 Luke 9:43-45
  - alganet 2y ago
    I mean a lot of other books, not just slightly different accounts.
    - lurk2 2y ago
      > I mean a lot of other books Such as?
      - alganet 2y ago
        You could start with Genesis. Predicting a destructive event (flood), gathering survivors to a safe place (ark), a sacrifice (bird that does not come back) followed by a success (bird comes back revealing land is close). It is predictive of the Bible itself. It's original version lost, only surviving pieces gathered, first testament interpretation sacrificed, new testament proven to be a fertile narrative. (sounds like a preface, doesn't it?) It's a book of the story of the book itself. Quite a thing. Is there something about the book that is not the book itself? Well, there are coincidences such as the ones I mentioned throughout the text. A kind of ghost conceptual presence, untangible but present in the similarities between the books. There you go. Three pieces book. Two testaments and a ghost. But is there something else beyond it? Probably not. That's what the book says, it's not there anymore. It says right away, as someone took it right in the beginning.

by lurk2 2y ago

alganet 2y ago

It is known that the specifics of the story were modified. The current text is kind of frozen by its own similarities to itself. The use of extracted quotes is probably a mistake. You have to find the same event in a lot of other books beyond Matthew to be able to find a tiny whiff of historical information, very faint, very difficult to do with translated versions.

dmonitor 2y ago
Luke 17:20-37 also seems to support the idea that Jesus was trying to tell people the kingdom was spiritual, not physical. The kingdom as a concept wasn't some novel idea, either. Jesus was claiming he was the fulfillment of the messianic prophecy in Judaism. He was reinterpreting the prophecy, though, as a spiritual rather than literal liberation. Tangential, but you can interpret the anti-christ in christian belief to bring the alleged kingdom, as a sort of anti-fulfillment of the prophecy.
- alganet 2y ago
  All of these declared disputes in meaning, names and events is precisely what I am referring to. One could argue that Jesus is the book itself anthropomorphized, edited so many times by so many sinners (crossed), that whatever salvation was contained within (a prophecy, a guide, a story) is not there anymore. It only serves to spare those who changed and betrayed it (to support churches and beliefs not originally present in it). Thus, the book died. It is said that once it briefly was brought back to life. It is a reference from the New Testament to itself. Then it died again (once a living, thriving narrative of human history constantly being augmented, now unable to be that again, eternally locked in disputes and conflicted interpretations, thus, dead).
- eli_gottlieb 2y ago
  The "Kingdom of Heaven" was not a contemporary concept in first-century CE Judaism, to my knowledge.
  - dmonitor 2y ago
    Not that term, but a Messiah that will establish / lead a powerful Jewish nation was
    - eli_gottlieb 2y ago
      Sure, but that was believed not only literally but very literally, as referring to the political liberation of the Jews from Roman rule.
lurk2 2y ago
> You have to find the same event in a lot of other books beyond Matthew to be able to find a tiny whiff of historical information The same event is described in the book of Mark (10:32-34) and the book of Luke (18:31-34). There are two other predictions that appear in all three books: Matthew 16:21-23 Mark 8:31-33 Luke 9:21-22 Matthew 17:22-23 Mark 9:30-32 Luke 9:43-45
- alganet 2y ago
  I mean a lot of other books, not just slightly different accounts.
  - lurk2 2y ago
    > I mean a lot of other books Such as?
    - alganet 2y ago
      You could start with Genesis. Predicting a destructive event (flood), gathering survivors to a safe place (ark), a sacrifice (bird that does not come back) followed by a success (bird comes back revealing land is close). It is predictive of the Bible itself. It's original version lost, only surviving pieces gathered, first testament interpretation sacrificed, new testament proven to be a fertile narrative. (sounds like a preface, doesn't it?) It's a book of the story of the book itself. Quite a thing. Is there something about the book that is not the book itself? Well, there are coincidences such as the ones I mentioned throughout the text. A kind of ghost conceptual presence, untangible but present in the similarities between the books. There you go. Three pieces book. Two testaments and a ghost. But is there something else beyond it? Probably not. That's what the book says, it's not there anymore. It says right away, as someone took it right in the beginning.