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> Solving problems for real people. Isn't the answer here kind of obvious? Look at the majority of the tech sector for the last ten years or so and tell me thi

> Solving problems for real people. Isn't the answer here kind of obvious? Look at the majority of the tech sector for the last ten years or so and tell me this answer again. Like I guess this is kind of true, if "problems for real people" equals "compensating for inefficiencies in our system for people with money" and "solutions" equals "making a poor person do it for them and paying them as little as legally possible."

tptacek 2y ago
Those of us who write software professionally are literally in a field premised on automating other people's jobs away. There is no profession with less claim to the moral high ground of worker rights than ours.
- frollogaston 2y ago
  Yeah I see it as fair game
- dml2135 2y ago
  It’s not automation that is the problem, it’s that the fruits of that automation disproportionately go to those at the top. Don’t blame software engineering for that, blame capitalism.
- ToucanLoucan 2y ago
  > Those of us who write software professionally are literally in a field premised on automating other people's jobs away. Depends what you write. What I work on isn't about eliminating jobs at all, if anything it creates them. And like, actual, good jobs that people would want, not, again, paying someone below the poverty line $5 to deliver an overpriced burrito across town.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    I think most of the time when we tell ourselves this, it's cope. Software is automation. "Computers" used to be people! Literally, people.
    - ToucanLoucan 2y ago
      I'm unable and unwilling to shadowbox with what you think I'm actually experiencing.
      - tptacek 2y ago
        That's fine; read it as me speaking to the whole thread, not challenging you directly. Technology drives economic productivity; increasing economic productivity generally implies worker displacement. That workers come out ahead in the long run (they have in the past; it's obviously not a guarantee) is besides my point. Software is automating software development away, the same way it automated a huge percentage of (say) law firm billable hours away. We'd better be ready to suck it up!
        myk9001 2y ago
        > That workers come out ahead in the long run (they have in the past...) Would you mind naming a few instance of the workers coming out ahead?
        tptacek 2y ago
        Sure. Compare the quality of life of the Computers to that of any stably employed person today who owns a computer.
        myk9001 2y ago
        Got it, you're talking about workers getting ahead as a category -- no objections to that. I doubt the displaced computers managed to find a better job on average. Probably even their kids were disadvantaged since the parents had fewer options to support their education. So, who knows if this specific group of people and their descendants ever fully recovered let alone got ahead.
        tptacek 2y ago
- smj-edison 2y ago
  Bit of a tangent but... Haven't we been automating jobs away since the industrial revolution? I know AI may be an exception to this trend, but at least with classical programming, demand goes up, GDP per capita goes up, and new industries are born. I mean, there's three ways to get stuff done: do it yourself, get someone else to do it, or get a machine to do it. #2 doesn't scale, since someone still has to do it. If we want every person to not be required to do it (washing, growing food, etc), #3 is the only way forward. Automation and specialization have made the unthinkable possible for an average person. We've a long way to go, but I don't see automation as a fundamentally bad thing, as long as there's a simultaneous effort to help (especially those who are poor) transition to a new form of working.
  - ToucanLoucan 2y ago
    > as long as there's a simultaneous effort to help (especially those who are poor) transition to a new form of working. Somehow everyone who says this misses that never in the history of the United States (and most other countries tbh) has this been true. We just consign people to the streets in industrial quantity. More underserved to act as the lubricant for capitalism.
    - smj-edison 2y ago
      But... My local library has a job searching program? I have a friend who's learning masonry at a government sponsored training program? It seems the issue is not that resources don't exist, but that these people don't have the time to use them. So it's unfair to say they don't exist. Rather, it seems they're structured in an unhelpful way for those who are working double jobs, etc. I see capitalism invoked as a "boogey man" a lot, which fair enough, you can make an emotional argument, but it's not specific enough to actually be helpful in coming up with a solution to help these people. In fact, capitalism has been the exact thing that has lifted so many out of poverty. Things can be simultaneously bad and also have gotten better over time. I would argue that the biggest issue is education, but that's another tangent...
      - ToucanLoucan 2y ago
- Verdex 2y ago
  Speak for yourself. I've worked in a medical space writing software so that people can automate away the job that their bodies used to do before they broke.
  - mopenstein 2y ago
    You're automating the 1's and 0's. There could be millions of people in an assembly like line of buttons, being paid minimum wage to press either the 1 or 0 button to eventually trigger the next operation. Now all those jobs are gone because of you.
- simonw 2y ago
  I often think about the savage job-destroying nature of the open source community: hundreds of thousands of developers working tirelessly to unemploy as many of their peers as possible by giving away the code they've written for free. (Interesting how people talk about AI destroying programming jobs all the time, but rarely mention the impact of billions of dollars of code being given away.)
  - chubot 2y ago
    Would vim or python be created by a company? It’s hard to see how they take jobs away Open source software is not just different in the license, it’s different in the design Linux also doesn’t take jobs away - the majority of contributors are paid by companies, afaik
    - simonw 2y ago
      Right: that's the point. Open source has created millions of jobs by increasing the value that individual software developers can provide.
- JohnFen 2y ago
  > Those of us who write software professionally are literally in a field premised on automating other people's jobs away. How true that is depends on what sort of software you write. Very little of what I've accomplished in my career can be fairly described as "automating other people's jobs away".
- concats 2y ago
  "Ten year contract you say?" "Yes, yes... Satellites stay in orbit for a while. What about it?" "Looks a bit cramped in there." "Stop complaining, at least it's a real job, now get in, we're about to launch."
- milesrout 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - 6747636484 2y ago
    > Automating jobs away is good for workers. Not bad. Sure, if you completely disregard the past 200 years or so of history.

tptacek 2y ago

Those of us who write software professionally are literally in a field premised on automating other people's jobs away. There is no profession with less claim to the moral high ground of worker rights than ours.

frollogaston 2y ago
Yeah I see it as fair game
dml2135 2y ago
It’s not automation that is the problem, it’s that the fruits of that automation disproportionately go to those at the top. Don’t blame software engineering for that, blame capitalism.
ToucanLoucan 2y ago
> Those of us who write software professionally are literally in a field premised on automating other people's jobs away. Depends what you write. What I work on isn't about eliminating jobs at all, if anything it creates them. And like, actual, good jobs that people would want, not, again, paying someone below the poverty line $5 to deliver an overpriced burrito across town.
- tptacek 2y ago
  I think most of the time when we tell ourselves this, it's cope. Software is automation. "Computers" used to be people! Literally, people.
  - ToucanLoucan 2y ago
    I'm unable and unwilling to shadowbox with what you think I'm actually experiencing.
    - tptacek 2y ago
      That's fine; read it as me speaking to the whole thread, not challenging you directly. Technology drives economic productivity; increasing economic productivity generally implies worker displacement. That workers come out ahead in the long run (they have in the past; it's obviously not a guarantee) is besides my point. Software is automating software development away, the same way it automated a huge percentage of (say) law firm billable hours away. We'd better be ready to suck it up!
      - myk9001 2y ago
        > That workers come out ahead in the long run (they have in the past...) Would you mind naming a few instance of the workers coming out ahead?
        tptacek 2y ago
        Sure. Compare the quality of life of the Computers to that of any stably employed person today who owns a computer.
        myk9001 2y ago
        Got it, you're talking about workers getting ahead as a category -- no objections to that. I doubt the displaced computers managed to find a better job on average. Probably even their kids were disadvantaged since the parents had fewer options to support their education. So, who knows if this specific group of people and their descendants ever fully recovered let alone got ahead.
        tptacek 2y ago
smj-edison 2y ago
Bit of a tangent but... Haven't we been automating jobs away since the industrial revolution? I know AI may be an exception to this trend, but at least with classical programming, demand goes up, GDP per capita goes up, and new industries are born. I mean, there's three ways to get stuff done: do it yourself, get someone else to do it, or get a machine to do it. #2 doesn't scale, since someone still has to do it. If we want every person to not be required to do it (washing, growing food, etc), #3 is the only way forward. Automation and specialization have made the unthinkable possible for an average person. We've a long way to go, but I don't see automation as a fundamentally bad thing, as long as there's a simultaneous effort to help (especially those who are poor) transition to a new form of working.
- ToucanLoucan 2y ago
  > as long as there's a simultaneous effort to help (especially those who are poor) transition to a new form of working. Somehow everyone who says this misses that never in the history of the United States (and most other countries tbh) has this been true. We just consign people to the streets in industrial quantity. More underserved to act as the lubricant for capitalism.
  - smj-edison 2y ago
    But... My local library has a job searching program? I have a friend who's learning masonry at a government sponsored training program? It seems the issue is not that resources don't exist, but that these people don't have the time to use them. So it's unfair to say they don't exist. Rather, it seems they're structured in an unhelpful way for those who are working double jobs, etc. I see capitalism invoked as a "boogey man" a lot, which fair enough, you can make an emotional argument, but it's not specific enough to actually be helpful in coming up with a solution to help these people. In fact, capitalism has been the exact thing that has lifted so many out of poverty. Things can be simultaneously bad and also have gotten better over time. I would argue that the biggest issue is education, but that's another tangent...
    - ToucanLoucan 2y ago
Verdex 2y ago
Speak for yourself. I've worked in a medical space writing software so that people can automate away the job that their bodies used to do before they broke.
- mopenstein 2y ago
  You're automating the 1's and 0's. There could be millions of people in an assembly like line of buttons, being paid minimum wage to press either the 1 or 0 button to eventually trigger the next operation. Now all those jobs are gone because of you.
simonw 2y ago
I often think about the savage job-destroying nature of the open source community: hundreds of thousands of developers working tirelessly to unemploy as many of their peers as possible by giving away the code they've written for free. (Interesting how people talk about AI destroying programming jobs all the time, but rarely mention the impact of billions of dollars of code being given away.)
- chubot 2y ago
  Would vim or python be created by a company? It’s hard to see how they take jobs away Open source software is not just different in the license, it’s different in the design Linux also doesn’t take jobs away - the majority of contributors are paid by companies, afaik
  - simonw 2y ago
    Right: that's the point. Open source has created millions of jobs by increasing the value that individual software developers can provide.
JohnFen 2y ago
> Those of us who write software professionally are literally in a field premised on automating other people's jobs away. How true that is depends on what sort of software you write. Very little of what I've accomplished in my career can be fairly described as "automating other people's jobs away".
concats 2y ago
"Ten year contract you say?" "Yes, yes... Satellites stay in orbit for a while. What about it?" "Looks a bit cramped in there." "Stop complaining, at least it's a real job, now get in, we're about to launch."
milesrout 2y ago
[flagged]
- 6747636484 2y ago
  > Automating jobs away is good for workers. Not bad. Sure, if you completely disregard the past 200 years or so of history.