5 ms·

The core idea is solid. At this point it just needs to be lighter, have better battery, and a much lower price. With further refinement and increased economie

by _mlbt 1y ago

The core idea is solid. At this point it just needs to be lighter, have better battery, and a much lower price. With further refinement and increased economies of scale these issues could potentially be fixed. Nearly all of the reviews I’ve read say that it’s a good user experience overall, but it’s not worth the price.

andsoitis 1y ago
> The core idea is solid What is the core idea?
- _mlbt 1y ago
  Spatial computing.
  - andsoitis 1y ago
    Spatial computing is to interact with and manipulate 3D space—blending the physical and digital worlds. It enables users to understand, interpret, and respond to the geometry, position, and movement of real-world environments. I fail to see that as a future mode of user/computer interaction that competes with or augments mobile/laptop computer usage in any meaningful way. Even movie watching, the most successful application of visionOS / Vision Pro, has limited use because it forces a solitary experience. While it can be useful (eg on a plane or in bed while your SO sleeps), you also already carry your phone and earbuds with you so it isn’t a compelling enough use case. Nobody is creating games for vision either and it I think it’s unlikely to become a favored general computing device or mode. I can probably say more succinctly: spatial computing appears to be a classic case of a solution looking for a problem. Prior art by Microsoft (HoloLens) and Google (Glass) are interesting because they occupied very different positions on the spatial computing spectrum, but in both cases they surfaced headwinds like the fact that people are unlikely to put glasses or headsets on the face/head juts in order to “compute”. If there was a path to direct neural input or contact lens delivery, now we might be talking, but even then, you’ve solved the physical impediments but still don’t have a compelling general purpose computing use case. Some would argue an addictive use case like porn can tip the scales, but I’m doubtful and, besides, I think we can be sure that Apple would never position themselves to depend on porn to advance their business interests. It seems safe to predict that within 3 — 5 years Apple gives up on this vision. They might come back to it in the future but I think they’re more alarmed by the other computer interaction paradigm that is getting a lot more traction: GenAI/LLM, which subverts the need for a rich visual display and fits and extends all our other computing models more elegantly.
    - boogieknite 1y ago
      as an avp hobby dev i dont disagree with your prediction. its a product i want and think is good, but im sure most people dont want and think is bad. i somewhat agree with your solution looking for a problem statement but i think a potential application for spatial computing is data collection and presentation. think of how many businesses depend on filling out forms to report on the state of a physical object/equipment. a spatial component where that form now has a location in space and the scene with the object can be reconstructed for review is valuable for businesses. to clarify, this is a case for spatial computing, not the avp. the avp is nowhere near rugged enough to do the job safely and one day the data collection is best handled by drones
    - Eggpants 1y ago
      GenAI/LLM slop subverts the need for a rich visual display. WTF. Please explain How does a statistic based lossy compression technique with high error rates does that? It’s telling that the best use case Facebook could come up with for its AI YouTube commercial spam is “give me conversion starters” lol.
    - xp84 1y ago
      > solution looking for a problem I think it's not actually that bad a situation, to me I think we're just at matters of degree. To explain: It's not that people can't see that it might be super nice to have an experience kind of like the AVP for a few already-known problems: 1. As an alternative to a big, heavy, non-portable display(s) or a bulky laptop for people who can't always just work at a desk. 2. As an alternative to a TV 3. Fun gaming applications. For instance, MarioKart Home Circuit is a neat game that uses physical karts with cameras, which you play on the TV, but imagine how cool it would be if kids could run around the house and the neighborhood with friends in AR racing karts that only you can see. 1 and 2 are already perfectly there, and obviously a very small number of games that take advantage of VR exist, but they're not that ambitious. The issue though is that nobody wants those 'problems' solved badly enough to (A) pay $3500+ plus tax for it, nor (B) wants to wear a very heavy and awkward-looking helmet with poor battery life. The promise is there. If a device can be made that is far lighter, can fold to fit in a coat pocket, with better battery life, and costing $1000, that could go a long way to being something people would find well worth the effort of carrying around and worth the cost. If everybody has one and it's comfortable and light, watching movies on it together, either on an awesome AR screen with atmospheric effects, or in a VR movie theater could be a fun experience rather than look like an absurd antisocial nerd thing. All this will require investment and improvement of the tech, and will require a healthy developer ecosystem, but with those pieces I'd give the idea itself a good shot. We'll see if Apple is willing or able to do either one. If not them, someone else might.
  - wpm 1y ago
    Spatial computing of iPad apps floating in the air with an even worse, low information rate input method? Neat concept, kneecapped at birth by sandboxing requirements, App Store rules, and Apples desire to own all of the innovation that could happen on the platform.
    - Eggpants 1y ago
      I also wished it was more Mac air than iPad but the remote wide curved desktop feature is VERY nice. It seems to me the next logical step is remote individual app display/controls. Sadly the Adtech scumbags can’t help themselves from trying to steal all the data they can, just see how they ignore robots.Txt, download phone address/numbers lists, download the outlook data file until measures were added to stop that, paying game publishers to include libraries loaded with phone home calls, and ignoring do not track because $$$ > ethics. Heck even Nvidia video drivers phone home with collected metrics. Sandboxed operating systems based on bsd jails(iOS), flat pack and snaps (Linux), and chromeOS are a first step at stopping this unethical behavior. The good old days of trusting software from large companies not to install data harvesting spyware are long gone.
    - parasubvert 1y ago
      Siri on visionOS is actually quite refreshing for its speech to text, it is almost entirely on device and very low latency, with much more accuracy than you see on iOS. The combination of a keyboard, trackpad, Siri, hand and eye tracking is incredibly high information rate input for me and it’s what I use for most of the day for the past eight months or so.
- eikenberry 1y ago
  I'd say the core idea is augmented reality. A HUD is a good place to start thinking about how this would be useful.
vFunct 1y ago
It doesn't need a battery at all. Just have it connect directly to a Mac to use as a virtual Mac display. It's what I use my Vision Pro for as its primary use case, to have an ultra-wide monitor in front of me without taking up any physical space. I use it for hours every day as my primary programming platform. I really have no other use case, and don't need the VR/AR features. The virtual ultra-wide display of the latest VisonOS updates, which has the area of 2 4k monitors, is just amazing for coding. It's an incredible user experience and worth every penny for the Vision Pro for that alone. Throwing away some of the AR/VR features and using it as a virtual display only would make it lighter and smaller. I could use something that doesn't block me from taking a drink while I code, for example. I couldn't care less about video games as well.
- andybak 1y ago
  There's nothing really to "throw away" that would make it slighter and smaller whilst still keeping your desired feature set. The reality is that you're using the VR/AR features in one specific way - not that you're not using VR/AR It's possible a slightly weaker CPU or GPU could be used but I don't think so and in any case the effects of that would be on cost not on weight. And I don't think the difference would be significant.
  - vFunct 1y ago
    If used as a display only, get rid of the M2 CPU subsystem, get rid of the external display, and maybe some of the cameras.
    - andybak 1y ago
      The external display being the EyeSight thing? I agree there. That's an expensive boondoggle that will probably be missing in the next iteration in any case. I don't think you can get rid of cameras without reducing the gesture tracking fidelity. That's the reason the Vision Pro has so many cameras. > M2 CPU subsystem Not clear on what this means without looking up the spec sheet. Do you mean "use a slower CPU" or something else? If the former - it won't help that much with size or weight. Sounds like you're really looking for something like the Bigscreen Beyond?
asadotzler 1y ago
No, it's not. The form factor cannot possibly shrink enough in size and weight or gain enough input ergonomics to make the gorgeous outputs worth it. Not gonna happen for goggles, ever. People won't smash a PC into their faces for no use cases beyond what their laptops and smartphones amply provide for. You think women who spend half a trillion dollars a year and an average of an hour a day on their hair and makeup are going to smash any kind of PC, no matter how small and light, into their faces requiring they redo their hair and makeup after every use? Really?

by _mlbt 1y ago

andsoitis 1y ago

> The core idea is solid What is the core idea?

_mlbt 1y ago
Spatial computing.
- andsoitis 1y ago
  Spatial computing is to interact with and manipulate 3D space—blending the physical and digital worlds. It enables users to understand, interpret, and respond to the geometry, position, and movement of real-world environments. I fail to see that as a future mode of user/computer interaction that competes with or augments mobile/laptop computer usage in any meaningful way. Even movie watching, the most successful application of visionOS / Vision Pro, has limited use because it forces a solitary experience. While it can be useful (eg on a plane or in bed while your SO sleeps), you also already carry your phone and earbuds with you so it isn’t a compelling enough use case. Nobody is creating games for vision either and it I think it’s unlikely to become a favored general computing device or mode. I can probably say more succinctly: spatial computing appears to be a classic case of a solution looking for a problem. Prior art by Microsoft (HoloLens) and Google (Glass) are interesting because they occupied very different positions on the spatial computing spectrum, but in both cases they surfaced headwinds like the fact that people are unlikely to put glasses or headsets on the face/head juts in order to “compute”. If there was a path to direct neural input or contact lens delivery, now we might be talking, but even then, you’ve solved the physical impediments but still don’t have a compelling general purpose computing use case. Some would argue an addictive use case like porn can tip the scales, but I’m doubtful and, besides, I think we can be sure that Apple would never position themselves to depend on porn to advance their business interests. It seems safe to predict that within 3 — 5 years Apple gives up on this vision. They might come back to it in the future but I think they’re more alarmed by the other computer interaction paradigm that is getting a lot more traction: GenAI/LLM, which subverts the need for a rich visual display and fits and extends all our other computing models more elegantly.
  - boogieknite 1y ago
    as an avp hobby dev i dont disagree with your prediction. its a product i want and think is good, but im sure most people dont want and think is bad. i somewhat agree with your solution looking for a problem statement but i think a potential application for spatial computing is data collection and presentation. think of how many businesses depend on filling out forms to report on the state of a physical object/equipment. a spatial component where that form now has a location in space and the scene with the object can be reconstructed for review is valuable for businesses. to clarify, this is a case for spatial computing, not the avp. the avp is nowhere near rugged enough to do the job safely and one day the data collection is best handled by drones
  - Eggpants 1y ago
    GenAI/LLM slop subverts the need for a rich visual display. WTF. Please explain How does a statistic based lossy compression technique with high error rates does that? It’s telling that the best use case Facebook could come up with for its AI YouTube commercial spam is “give me conversion starters” lol.
  - xp84 1y ago
    > solution looking for a problem I think it's not actually that bad a situation, to me I think we're just at matters of degree. To explain: It's not that people can't see that it might be super nice to have an experience kind of like the AVP for a few already-known problems: 1. As an alternative to a big, heavy, non-portable display(s) or a bulky laptop for people who can't always just work at a desk. 2. As an alternative to a TV 3. Fun gaming applications. For instance, MarioKart Home Circuit is a neat game that uses physical karts with cameras, which you play on the TV, but imagine how cool it would be if kids could run around the house and the neighborhood with friends in AR racing karts that only you can see. 1 and 2 are already perfectly there, and obviously a very small number of games that take advantage of VR exist, but they're not that ambitious. The issue though is that nobody wants those 'problems' solved badly enough to (A) pay $3500+ plus tax for it, nor (B) wants to wear a very heavy and awkward-looking helmet with poor battery life. The promise is there. If a device can be made that is far lighter, can fold to fit in a coat pocket, with better battery life, and costing $1000, that could go a long way to being something people would find well worth the effort of carrying around and worth the cost. If everybody has one and it's comfortable and light, watching movies on it together, either on an awesome AR screen with atmospheric effects, or in a VR movie theater could be a fun experience rather than look like an absurd antisocial nerd thing. All this will require investment and improvement of the tech, and will require a healthy developer ecosystem, but with those pieces I'd give the idea itself a good shot. We'll see if Apple is willing or able to do either one. If not them, someone else might.
- wpm 1y ago
  Spatial computing of iPad apps floating in the air with an even worse, low information rate input method? Neat concept, kneecapped at birth by sandboxing requirements, App Store rules, and Apples desire to own all of the innovation that could happen on the platform.
  - Eggpants 1y ago
    I also wished it was more Mac air than iPad but the remote wide curved desktop feature is VERY nice. It seems to me the next logical step is remote individual app display/controls. Sadly the Adtech scumbags can’t help themselves from trying to steal all the data they can, just see how they ignore robots.Txt, download phone address/numbers lists, download the outlook data file until measures were added to stop that, paying game publishers to include libraries loaded with phone home calls, and ignoring do not track because $$$ > ethics. Heck even Nvidia video drivers phone home with collected metrics. Sandboxed operating systems based on bsd jails(iOS), flat pack and snaps (Linux), and chromeOS are a first step at stopping this unethical behavior. The good old days of trusting software from large companies not to install data harvesting spyware are long gone.
  - parasubvert 1y ago
    Siri on visionOS is actually quite refreshing for its speech to text, it is almost entirely on device and very low latency, with much more accuracy than you see on iOS. The combination of a keyboard, trackpad, Siri, hand and eye tracking is incredibly high information rate input for me and it’s what I use for most of the day for the past eight months or so.
eikenberry 1y ago
I'd say the core idea is augmented reality. A HUD is a good place to start thinking about how this would be useful.

vFunct 1y ago

It doesn't need a battery at all. Just have it connect directly to a Mac to use as a virtual Mac display. It's what I use my Vision Pro for as its primary use case, to have an ultra-wide monitor in front of me without taking up any physical space. I use it for hours every day as my primary programming platform. I really have no other use case, and don't need the VR/AR features. The virtual ultra-wide display of the latest VisonOS updates, which has the area of 2 4k monitors, is just amazing for coding. It's an incredible user experience and worth every penny for the Vision Pro for that alone. Throwing away some of the AR/VR features and using it as a virtual display only would make it lighter and smaller. I could use something that doesn't block me from taking a drink while I code, for example. I couldn't care less about video games as well.

andybak 1y ago
There's nothing really to "throw away" that would make it slighter and smaller whilst still keeping your desired feature set. The reality is that you're using the VR/AR features in one specific way - not that you're not using VR/AR It's possible a slightly weaker CPU or GPU could be used but I don't think so and in any case the effects of that would be on cost not on weight. And I don't think the difference would be significant.
- vFunct 1y ago
  If used as a display only, get rid of the M2 CPU subsystem, get rid of the external display, and maybe some of the cameras.
  - andybak 1y ago
    The external display being the EyeSight thing? I agree there. That's an expensive boondoggle that will probably be missing in the next iteration in any case. I don't think you can get rid of cameras without reducing the gesture tracking fidelity. That's the reason the Vision Pro has so many cameras. > M2 CPU subsystem Not clear on what this means without looking up the spec sheet. Do you mean "use a slower CPU" or something else? If the former - it won't help that much with size or weight. Sounds like you're really looking for something like the Bigscreen Beyond?

asadotzler 1y ago

No, it's not. The form factor cannot possibly shrink enough in size and weight or gain enough input ergonomics to make the gorgeous outputs worth it. Not gonna happen for goggles, ever. People won't smash a PC into their faces for no use cases beyond what their laptops and smartphones amply provide for. You think women who spend half a trillion dollars a year and an average of an hour a day on their hair and makeup are going to smash any kind of PC, no matter how small and light, into their faces requiring they redo their hair and makeup after every use? Really?