4 ms·

Setting aside that this is looking at the wrong side of the market like often happens in these discussions, what do you as a consumer do when Android or Huawei

Setting aside that this is looking at the wrong side of the market like often happens in these discussions, what do you as a consumer do when Android or Huawei do something else that's a deal breaker for you?

robertlagrant 2y ago
Stop using them. What do you do if every car manufacturer does something that's a "deal breaker"? Don't make a deal with them by not buying a car.
- dns_snek 2y ago
  > What do you do if every car manufacturer does something that's a "deal breaker" Sane societies recognize the problem and regulate it out of existence.
  - ajmurmann 2y ago
    Preference is subjective. I hate touch screens in cars that so anything but provide a screen for my phone, others love them. Should we ban touch screen controls because of my preference? I like to have a curated app store for my phone and not have a free-for-all with multiple stores of varying quality where I need to set up a new store just to use a popular app. So I can buy an iphone and people who have a different preference can buy an Android phone. If consumers actually cared that much they'd just avoid iOS. It's the magic of the market. Let's have consumers put their money where their mouth is! Stated preference and revealed preference often differ for a reason.
    - bootsmann 2y ago
      Your cars touchscreen is not a marketplace. The M in DMA is for markets, which is what the regulation targets. Now if your car manufacturer sold the car and someone else sold the touchscreen then you could talk about this but as it stands its a false equivalence. Apple has a market within iOS over which it can arbitrarily enforce anti-competitive rules, the EU regulates this type of behaviour.
      - ajmurmann 2y ago
        Yes, my point is that this regulation shouldn't exist in the first place. Don't like the iPhone, don't buy the iPhone!
        thunderfork 2y ago
        [dead]
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    I think it's more likely that insane societies do - elevate one person's consumer choices to national scale.
    - dns_snek 2y ago
      Sure, just one person's consumer choice to curb anti-competitive behavior which is artificially raising prices for everyone and restricting innovation. Among other fringe choices like having electrical appliances that don't kill us, paint that doesn't cause brain damage, cars that don't poison our air, and rivers that aren't full of toxic chemicals.
      - robertlagrant 2y ago
        Mobile phones have had one of the most rapid price plummets and feature additions in history. The only thing stopping another competitor is the fact that it's so hard to compete with them, because they're incredible value for money and there isn't a market being gouged that can be un-gouged.
        dns_snek 2y ago
        You're still looking at this from a perspective that's completely irrelevant to this entire legislation. In very simple terms if my business needs to reach people who happen to use iOS and Android devices, and the only way to do that properly is using a native app, then I need to go through Apple and Google because that's where all of my potential customers are. That puts Apple and Google into a gatekeeping position and allows them to dictate unfair terms because together they control access to what, 99% or more of the consumer market? These unfair terms trickle down to all of us and we end up paying more and have less choice than we would in a transparent, regulated market. That's what the DMA is concerned with, not some fantasy about feasibility of creating a competitor to Android or iOS, or ease of switching between them which is completely besides the point.
maccard 2y ago
But this is exactly the argument against forcing Apple to change. The reason I use iOS is because of the App Store. If meta create a meta store for Facebook and Instagram, and pull it from the App Store, then the platform that I use for that feature is no longer viable for me, and neither is the competing platform. Right now you have a choice, as do I - an open ecosystem on android or a closed ecosystem on iOS. By forcing iOS to open up, people who actively choose the closed ecosystem for guaranteed compatibility, tighter integrations and a less customisable ux are removed of their option. To use the sandbox analogy, there are two sandboxes. A lets you bring your own toys, B only lets you choose from the toys they provide. I choose to go to B because of the toys they provide and because I don’t want to deal with the toys other people bring. People from A like the look of my sandbox so the rules get changed, and now there’s two sandboxes with the same rules, you have two choices and my preference is gone.
- dns_snek 2y ago
  Every single thread on this topic devolves into "if you don't like Apple just use Android" or vice versa and it's so predictable and boring. Again, like I pointed out in my previous comment, it's not just about you or me as consumers and our immediate preferences. Apple's and Google's anti-competitive behavior is stifling innovation with their policies and fees. First and foremost this affects developers/businesses who need to reach Apple's and Google's users, and if the only way for them to reach us for technical reasons is through native apps, then they're subject to whatever insane policies and fees these companies demand. This is what makes them gatekeepers and it should be fairly obvious how being in that position, while dictating silly rules about what is or isn't acceptable (based purely on preference, like "no porn", "no game emulators"), charging a 30% tax on everyone's revenue while prohibiting communication with your own customers about alternative payment methods results in bad long term outcomes. Also your example with Meta's apps is a false dilemma. If you want to use their apps you can always install them from their own hypothetical app store, your choice isn't being taken away from you and it doesn't make the platform any less viable. > By forcing iOS to open up, people who actively choose the closed ecosystem for guaranteed compatibility, tighter integrations and a less customisable ux are removed of their option. Can you elaborate on how this applies to your usage of Facebook?

robertlagrant 2y ago

Stop using them. What do you do if every car manufacturer does something that's a "deal breaker"? Don't make a deal with them by not buying a car.

dns_snek 2y ago
> What do you do if every car manufacturer does something that's a "deal breaker" Sane societies recognize the problem and regulate it out of existence.
- ajmurmann 2y ago
  Preference is subjective. I hate touch screens in cars that so anything but provide a screen for my phone, others love them. Should we ban touch screen controls because of my preference? I like to have a curated app store for my phone and not have a free-for-all with multiple stores of varying quality where I need to set up a new store just to use a popular app. So I can buy an iphone and people who have a different preference can buy an Android phone. If consumers actually cared that much they'd just avoid iOS. It's the magic of the market. Let's have consumers put their money where their mouth is! Stated preference and revealed preference often differ for a reason.
  - bootsmann 2y ago
    Your cars touchscreen is not a marketplace. The M in DMA is for markets, which is what the regulation targets. Now if your car manufacturer sold the car and someone else sold the touchscreen then you could talk about this but as it stands its a false equivalence. Apple has a market within iOS over which it can arbitrarily enforce anti-competitive rules, the EU regulates this type of behaviour.
    - ajmurmann 2y ago
      Yes, my point is that this regulation shouldn't exist in the first place. Don't like the iPhone, don't buy the iPhone!
      - thunderfork 2y ago
        [dead]
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  I think it's more likely that insane societies do - elevate one person's consumer choices to national scale.
  - dns_snek 2y ago
    Sure, just one person's consumer choice to curb anti-competitive behavior which is artificially raising prices for everyone and restricting innovation. Among other fringe choices like having electrical appliances that don't kill us, paint that doesn't cause brain damage, cars that don't poison our air, and rivers that aren't full of toxic chemicals.
    - robertlagrant 2y ago
      Mobile phones have had one of the most rapid price plummets and feature additions in history. The only thing stopping another competitor is the fact that it's so hard to compete with them, because they're incredible value for money and there isn't a market being gouged that can be un-gouged.
      - dns_snek 2y ago
        You're still looking at this from a perspective that's completely irrelevant to this entire legislation. In very simple terms if my business needs to reach people who happen to use iOS and Android devices, and the only way to do that properly is using a native app, then I need to go through Apple and Google because that's where all of my potential customers are. That puts Apple and Google into a gatekeeping position and allows them to dictate unfair terms because together they control access to what, 99% or more of the consumer market? These unfair terms trickle down to all of us and we end up paying more and have less choice than we would in a transparent, regulated market. That's what the DMA is concerned with, not some fantasy about feasibility of creating a competitor to Android or iOS, or ease of switching between them which is completely besides the point.

maccard 2y ago

But this is exactly the argument against forcing Apple to change. The reason I use iOS is because of the App Store. If meta create a meta store for Facebook and Instagram, and pull it from the App Store, then the platform that I use for that feature is no longer viable for me, and neither is the competing platform. Right now you have a choice, as do I - an open ecosystem on android or a closed ecosystem on iOS. By forcing iOS to open up, people who actively choose the closed ecosystem for guaranteed compatibility, tighter integrations and a less customisable ux are removed of their option. To use the sandbox analogy, there are two sandboxes. A lets you bring your own toys, B only lets you choose from the toys they provide. I choose to go to B because of the toys they provide and because I don’t want to deal with the toys other people bring. People from A like the look of my sandbox so the rules get changed, and now there’s two sandboxes with the same rules, you have two choices and my preference is gone.

dns_snek 2y ago
Every single thread on this topic devolves into "if you don't like Apple just use Android" or vice versa and it's so predictable and boring. Again, like I pointed out in my previous comment, it's not just about you or me as consumers and our immediate preferences. Apple's and Google's anti-competitive behavior is stifling innovation with their policies and fees. First and foremost this affects developers/businesses who need to reach Apple's and Google's users, and if the only way for them to reach us for technical reasons is through native apps, then they're subject to whatever insane policies and fees these companies demand. This is what makes them gatekeepers and it should be fairly obvious how being in that position, while dictating silly rules about what is or isn't acceptable (based purely on preference, like "no porn", "no game emulators"), charging a 30% tax on everyone's revenue while prohibiting communication with your own customers about alternative payment methods results in bad long term outcomes. Also your example with Meta's apps is a false dilemma. If you want to use their apps you can always install them from their own hypothetical app store, your choice isn't being taken away from you and it doesn't make the platform any less viable. > By forcing iOS to open up, people who actively choose the closed ecosystem for guaranteed compatibility, tighter integrations and a less customisable ux are removed of their option. Can you elaborate on how this applies to your usage of Facebook?