4 ms·

You can buy an android or huawei phone. Just because the ecosystem you like to use doesn't have certain features doesn't make it a monopoly.

by zpeti 1y ago

boxed 1y ago
Switching from one duopoly to another isn't choice.
ThatMedicIsASpy 1y ago
You can leave the market if you dont like the rules of the market.
- iwontberude 1y ago
  Consumers should have greater and greater access to markets with more favorable conditions. It’s not acceptable to have consumer hostile markets in many respects e.g. healthcare. It would behoove us as consumers to demand access to markets as mundane as cellular phones. Accepting market manipulation by oligopolistic companies to reduce choice and walking away from phone ownership altogether seems counter productive for everyone.
dns_snek 1y ago
Setting aside that this is looking at the wrong side of the market like often happens in these discussions, what do you as a consumer do when Android or Huawei do something else that's a deal breaker for you?
- robertlagrant 1y ago
  Stop using them. What do you do if every car manufacturer does something that's a "deal breaker"? Don't make a deal with them by not buying a car.
  - dns_snek 1y ago
    > What do you do if every car manufacturer does something that's a "deal breaker" Sane societies recognize the problem and regulate it out of existence.
    - ajmurmann 1y ago
      Preference is subjective. I hate touch screens in cars that so anything but provide a screen for my phone, others love them. Should we ban touch screen controls because of my preference? I like to have a curated app store for my phone and not have a free-for-all with multiple stores of varying quality where I need to set up a new store just to use a popular app. So I can buy an iphone and people who have a different preference can buy an Android phone. If consumers actually cared that much they'd just avoid iOS. It's the magic of the market. Let's have consumers put their money where their mouth is! Stated preference and revealed preference often differ for a reason.
      - bootsmann 1y ago
        Your cars touchscreen is not a marketplace. The M in DMA is for markets, which is what the regulation targets. Now if your car manufacturer sold the car and someone else sold the touchscreen then you could talk about this but as it stands its a false equivalence. Apple has a market within iOS over which it can arbitrarily enforce anti-competitive rules, the EU regulates this type of behaviour.
        ajmurmann 1y ago
        Yes, my point is that this regulation shouldn't exist in the first place. Don't like the iPhone, don't buy the iPhone!
        thunderfork 1y ago
        [dead]
    - 1y ago
- maccard 1y ago
  But this is exactly the argument against forcing Apple to change. The reason I use iOS is because of the App Store. If meta create a meta store for Facebook and Instagram, and pull it from the App Store, then the platform that I use for that feature is no longer viable for me, and neither is the competing platform. Right now you have a choice, as do I - an open ecosystem on android or a closed ecosystem on iOS. By forcing iOS to open up, people who actively choose the closed ecosystem for guaranteed compatibility, tighter integrations and a less customisable ux are removed of their option. To use the sandbox analogy, there are two sandboxes. A lets you bring your own toys, B only lets you choose from the toys they provide. I choose to go to B because of the toys they provide and because I don’t want to deal with the toys other people bring. People from A like the look of my sandbox so the rules get changed, and now there’s two sandboxes with the same rules, you have two choices and my preference is gone.
  - dns_snek 1y ago
    Every single thread on this topic devolves into "if you don't like Apple just use Android" or vice versa and it's so predictable and boring. Again, like I pointed out in my previous comment, it's not just about you or me as consumers and our immediate preferences. Apple's and Google's anti-competitive behavior is stifling innovation with their policies and fees. First and foremost this affects developers/businesses who need to reach Apple's and Google's users, and if the only way for them to reach us for technical reasons is through native apps, then they're subject to whatever insane policies and fees these companies demand. This is what makes them gatekeepers and it should be fairly obvious how being in that position, while dictating silly rules about what is or isn't acceptable (based purely on preference, like "no porn", "no game emulators"), charging a 30% tax on everyone's revenue while prohibiting communication with your own customers about alternative payment methods results in bad long term outcomes. Also your example with Meta's apps is a false dilemma. If you want to use their apps you can always install them from their own hypothetical app store, your choice isn't being taken away from you and it doesn't make the platform any less viable. > By forcing iOS to open up, people who actively choose the closed ecosystem for guaranteed compatibility, tighter integrations and a less customisable ux are removed of their option. Can you elaborate on how this applies to your usage of Facebook?
sussmannbaka 1y ago
Or I can buy an iPhone and Apple doesn’t break the law :)
libertine 1y ago
Apple can also exit the EU market if they don't want to comply with the law. Just because the regulation doesn't suit its business model doesn't make it mandatory to be present in a given market.

You can buy an android or huawei phone. Just because the ecosystem you like to use doesn't have certain features doesn't make it a monopoly.

by zpeti 1y ago

You can buy an android or huawei phone. Just because the ecosystem you like to use doesn't have certain features doesn't make it a monopoly.

boxed 1y ago

Switching from one duopoly to another isn't choice.

ThatMedicIsASpy 1y ago

You can leave the market if you dont like the rules of the market.

iwontberude 1y ago
Consumers should have greater and greater access to markets with more favorable conditions. It’s not acceptable to have consumer hostile markets in many respects e.g. healthcare. It would behoove us as consumers to demand access to markets as mundane as cellular phones. Accepting market manipulation by oligopolistic companies to reduce choice and walking away from phone ownership altogether seems counter productive for everyone.

dns_snek 1y ago

Setting aside that this is looking at the wrong side of the market like often happens in these discussions, what do you as a consumer do when Android or Huawei do something else that's a deal breaker for you?

robertlagrant 1y ago
Stop using them. What do you do if every car manufacturer does something that's a "deal breaker"? Don't make a deal with them by not buying a car.
- dns_snek 1y ago
  > What do you do if every car manufacturer does something that's a "deal breaker" Sane societies recognize the problem and regulate it out of existence.
  - ajmurmann 1y ago
    Preference is subjective. I hate touch screens in cars that so anything but provide a screen for my phone, others love them. Should we ban touch screen controls because of my preference? I like to have a curated app store for my phone and not have a free-for-all with multiple stores of varying quality where I need to set up a new store just to use a popular app. So I can buy an iphone and people who have a different preference can buy an Android phone. If consumers actually cared that much they'd just avoid iOS. It's the magic of the market. Let's have consumers put their money where their mouth is! Stated preference and revealed preference often differ for a reason.
    - bootsmann 1y ago
      Your cars touchscreen is not a marketplace. The M in DMA is for markets, which is what the regulation targets. Now if your car manufacturer sold the car and someone else sold the touchscreen then you could talk about this but as it stands its a false equivalence. Apple has a market within iOS over which it can arbitrarily enforce anti-competitive rules, the EU regulates this type of behaviour.
      - ajmurmann 1y ago
        Yes, my point is that this regulation shouldn't exist in the first place. Don't like the iPhone, don't buy the iPhone!
        thunderfork 1y ago
        [dead]
  - 1y ago
maccard 1y ago
But this is exactly the argument against forcing Apple to change. The reason I use iOS is because of the App Store. If meta create a meta store for Facebook and Instagram, and pull it from the App Store, then the platform that I use for that feature is no longer viable for me, and neither is the competing platform. Right now you have a choice, as do I - an open ecosystem on android or a closed ecosystem on iOS. By forcing iOS to open up, people who actively choose the closed ecosystem for guaranteed compatibility, tighter integrations and a less customisable ux are removed of their option. To use the sandbox analogy, there are two sandboxes. A lets you bring your own toys, B only lets you choose from the toys they provide. I choose to go to B because of the toys they provide and because I don’t want to deal with the toys other people bring. People from A like the look of my sandbox so the rules get changed, and now there’s two sandboxes with the same rules, you have two choices and my preference is gone.
- dns_snek 1y ago
  Every single thread on this topic devolves into "if you don't like Apple just use Android" or vice versa and it's so predictable and boring. Again, like I pointed out in my previous comment, it's not just about you or me as consumers and our immediate preferences. Apple's and Google's anti-competitive behavior is stifling innovation with their policies and fees. First and foremost this affects developers/businesses who need to reach Apple's and Google's users, and if the only way for them to reach us for technical reasons is through native apps, then they're subject to whatever insane policies and fees these companies demand. This is what makes them gatekeepers and it should be fairly obvious how being in that position, while dictating silly rules about what is or isn't acceptable (based purely on preference, like "no porn", "no game emulators"), charging a 30% tax on everyone's revenue while prohibiting communication with your own customers about alternative payment methods results in bad long term outcomes. Also your example with Meta's apps is a false dilemma. If you want to use their apps you can always install them from their own hypothetical app store, your choice isn't being taken away from you and it doesn't make the platform any less viable. > By forcing iOS to open up, people who actively choose the closed ecosystem for guaranteed compatibility, tighter integrations and a less customisable ux are removed of their option. Can you elaborate on how this applies to your usage of Facebook?

sussmannbaka 1y ago

Or I can buy an iPhone and Apple doesn’t break the law :)

libertine 1y ago

Apple can also exit the EU market if they don't want to comply with the law. Just because the regulation doesn't suit its business model doesn't make it mandatory to be present in a given market.