4 ms·

The SRE team at our company decided to adopt k8s and Helm chart and ArgoCD and whatever. That's cool. Do whatever you want. A few months later they told us, "si

The SRE team at our company decided to adopt k8s and Helm chart and ArgoCD and whatever. That's cool. Do whatever you want. A few months later they told us, "since we are extremely busy and undermanned, we ask app teams to take care of those helm charts and TF codes from now on." Wait what?

ivape 1y ago
Would you consider that OPS or DevOps? It's DevOps that's insane with all that bullshit, but I always felt like regular OPS teams just kinda keep it pretty classic/standard. The under-reported story on HN is that devops has been just as bad as other more popular punching bags for churn. We went wrong somewhere in the mid 2010s with everything, that's just my feeling.
- esseph 1y ago
  Companies thought devops was about headcount reduction. There are now a lot of unpatched systems running out there that need their applications replatformed. Won't happen.
stackskipton 1y ago
As Ops person, I both feel for you and them. With Helm, yea, that's awful to inflict on developers, use Kustomize with Templates instead (https://kustomize.io/ https://kustomize.io/) However, like most companies, Ops is easy place to cut and they commonly reduce us below outstanding workload. However, when they do, they still push the dev teams to deliver so here we are.
- bombela 1y ago
  Except that kustomize is very limited in annoying ways. Is very badly documented. And is not the same between the `kubectl apply` and `kustomize`. At the end you will pipe through `sed` anyways.
  - stackskipton 1y ago
    That limitation makes it easier for the devs to understand and use. I've never seen kubectl kustomize be any different locally then what GitOps/Build system will apply to the cluster. Helm is all over the place because templating engine could connect to Kubernetes API and what you see locally is not what you will get on cluster. Helm is great idea and awesome for software that is not exactly sure what cluster environment will look. However, for internal software, almost all companies have clear defined Kubernetes environments where you don't have to worry about any of that and kustomize works great. Use least amount of power instead of most amount of power. If kustomize no longer works for you, Helm is always there if you feel like torturing everyone. FluxCD/Argo support both happily.
    - bombela 1y ago
      To be clear, I didn't not mean to imply that I find Helm to be good at all. I am with you on all the negatives here. I think the general idea behind kustomize is great. Sadly the execution is a mess of complicated code, with a billion of useless abstractions. Culminating into a tool that doesn't do what it promises. Including infinite loops. Yes I have had it get stuck on infinite loops during text matching. And before anybody tells me to contribute to kustomize instead of complaining: 1) pay me for it. 2) actually don't, I don't want to touch this codebase. Reading it was traumatizing enough.
- esafak 1y ago
  Both rub me the wrong way. Isn't there something better?
  - pas 1y ago
    cdk8s+ ... you get type checking with TypeScript, you can do whatever because you have a normal runtime (Node/Deno/Bun) no need to live with crude tools
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
elktown 1y ago
Welcome to the travelling SRE Circus! We travel to the smallest of villages! Our attractions are plenty, our maintainers are few, so please sign the waiver presented to you! / Greetings disillusioned dev once excited by the potential simplifications the “cloud” could bring, but all I got was a Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas level binge in bloat and this T-shirt.

ivape 1y ago

Would you consider that OPS or DevOps? It's DevOps that's insane with all that bullshit, but I always felt like regular OPS teams just kinda keep it pretty classic/standard. The under-reported story on HN is that devops has been just as bad as other more popular punching bags for churn. We went wrong somewhere in the mid 2010s with everything, that's just my feeling.

esseph 1y ago
Companies thought devops was about headcount reduction. There are now a lot of unpatched systems running out there that need their applications replatformed. Won't happen.

stackskipton 1y ago

As Ops person, I both feel for you and them. With Helm, yea, that's awful to inflict on developers, use Kustomize with Templates instead (https://kustomize.io/ https://kustomize.io/) However, like most companies, Ops is easy place to cut and they commonly reduce us below outstanding workload. However, when they do, they still push the dev teams to deliver so here we are.

bombela 1y ago
Except that kustomize is very limited in annoying ways. Is very badly documented. And is not the same between the `kubectl apply` and `kustomize`. At the end you will pipe through `sed` anyways.
- stackskipton 1y ago
  That limitation makes it easier for the devs to understand and use. I've never seen kubectl kustomize be any different locally then what GitOps/Build system will apply to the cluster. Helm is all over the place because templating engine could connect to Kubernetes API and what you see locally is not what you will get on cluster. Helm is great idea and awesome for software that is not exactly sure what cluster environment will look. However, for internal software, almost all companies have clear defined Kubernetes environments where you don't have to worry about any of that and kustomize works great. Use least amount of power instead of most amount of power. If kustomize no longer works for you, Helm is always there if you feel like torturing everyone. FluxCD/Argo support both happily.
  - bombela 1y ago
    To be clear, I didn't not mean to imply that I find Helm to be good at all. I am with you on all the negatives here. I think the general idea behind kustomize is great. Sadly the execution is a mess of complicated code, with a billion of useless abstractions. Culminating into a tool that doesn't do what it promises. Including infinite loops. Yes I have had it get stuck on infinite loops during text matching. And before anybody tells me to contribute to kustomize instead of complaining: 1) pay me for it. 2) actually don't, I don't want to touch this codebase. Reading it was traumatizing enough.
esafak 1y ago
Both rub me the wrong way. Isn't there something better?
- pas 1y ago
  cdk8s+ ... you get type checking with TypeScript, you can do whatever because you have a normal runtime (Node/Deno/Bun) no need to live with crude tools

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

elktown 1y ago

Welcome to the travelling SRE Circus! We travel to the smallest of villages! Our attractions are plenty, our maintainers are few, so please sign the waiver presented to you! / Greetings disillusioned dev once excited by the potential simplifications the “cloud” could bring, but all I got was a Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas level binge in bloat and this T-shirt.