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The phrase rent-seeking is such a funny one to me. Like, if rent-seeking is bad that should apply across the board. I.e. being a landlord, literally seeking ren

The phrase rent-seeking is such a funny one to me. Like, if rent-seeking is bad that should apply across the board. I.e. being a landlord, literally seeking rent from tenants. Yet I fear the issue most people on here have with “rent seeking” is the harm it does to a theoretical idea of free market capitalism - rather than the tangible harm of extracting wealth from someone’s need for a place to live.

teemur 2y ago
Rent-seeking is a pretty well-known term that has not much to do with rents. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking
- kennywinker 2y ago
  “Rent-seeking is the act of growing one's existing wealth by manipulating the social or political environment without creating new wealth” So, renting out a home. Just the manipulation of social and political environment has already been done. Rent sought, not rent seeking. Rent as in rent paid to live in a home fits the definition of “economic rent” perfectly. Because housing rent is an example of economic rent. The cognitive dissonance i am pointing out is that seeking economic rent is bad, but using already created structures to obtain economic rent is… not bad somehow?
  - pyfon 2y ago
    And not all renting out is rent seeking! On occasion in cities with decreasing home prices, the landlord is subsidising the tenant. That is rare though!
    - kennywinker 2y ago
      Agreed - there are rare circumstances when landlords are losing money. When that happens landlords will usually seek rent increases, or changes to housing / zoning / development rules, etc.
  - kelnos 2y ago
    I don't agree with your characterization here, so no cognitive dissonance needed.
    - kennywinker 2y ago
      Agree or disagree, housing rent is economic rent.
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    Renting a place to live allows one to hold a job and create value.
    - kennywinker 2y ago
      Having a place to live allows that. Rent just allows someone to take a portion of your income while you do that.
  - gruez 2y ago
    >So, renting out a home. Just the manipulation of social and political environment has already been done. Rent sought, not rent seeking. That makes sense for the land, but not so much for the actual structure that sits on top. The land is going to exist no matter what. the same can't be said of the apartment building .
    - kennywinker 2y ago
      That’s the “without creating new wealth” part of the definition of rent seeking. Now, I’ve lived in a lot of rentals in my life - and not one of my landlords built the home they were renting out. Most or all of those homes had the cost of building them paid off decades ago.
alistairSH 2y ago
There’s a reason people in parts of the US are gravely concerned about the rapid acquisition of housing by PE groups and other large investors. Which, not coincidentally has led to the enshittification of the mobile home park market. Something I wouldn’t have believed possible a decade ago, but her we are.
jodrellblank 2y ago
You’re so close! This is like watching right wing people smugly saying “the phrase women’s rights is such a funny one to me - if we assume women are humans and deserve rights then what next, black rights?” As if they’ve hit a winning argument that of course black people aren’t human and don’t deserve rights so of course women's rights are a nonsense as well. You've started with the assumption that landlording is a good Capitalist respectable thing and nobody could question it, so mocking the thing a landlord does can't possibly have any legs to stand on. But yes! A landlord seeking rent for doing nothing is a parasite! Yes! It’s rent seeking! The people who really try to defend it as difficult and performing a useful service are bad people who benefit from the status quo and lack the imagination and wider experience to see that things like council housing exists and works and benefits people other than the wealthy landowners. If there are two houses and two families could own them and live in them, turning it into one family owning both plots/houses and the the other family paying rent forever is worse. Turning it into one landlord owning both plots/houses and charging both families to live there forever so they don't have to work for a living is worse again. Turning it into a landlord class who both try to squeeze as much rent as possible while lobbying the authorities to block new-house building and reduce tenant's rights is worse again.
- kennywinker 2y ago
  > You've started with the assumption that landlording is a good Capitalist respectable thing and nobody could question it No, gently calling that into question was entirely my point. I was starting with the assumption that the reader believed that, but I don’t.

teemur 2y ago

Rent-seeking is a pretty well-known term that has not much to do with rents. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking

kennywinker 2y ago
“Rent-seeking is the act of growing one's existing wealth by manipulating the social or political environment without creating new wealth” So, renting out a home. Just the manipulation of social and political environment has already been done. Rent sought, not rent seeking. Rent as in rent paid to live in a home fits the definition of “economic rent” perfectly. Because housing rent is an example of economic rent. The cognitive dissonance i am pointing out is that seeking economic rent is bad, but using already created structures to obtain economic rent is… not bad somehow?
- pyfon 2y ago
  And not all renting out is rent seeking! On occasion in cities with decreasing home prices, the landlord is subsidising the tenant. That is rare though!
  - kennywinker 2y ago
    Agreed - there are rare circumstances when landlords are losing money. When that happens landlords will usually seek rent increases, or changes to housing / zoning / development rules, etc.
- kelnos 2y ago
  I don't agree with your characterization here, so no cognitive dissonance needed.
  - kennywinker 2y ago
    Agree or disagree, housing rent is economic rent.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  Renting a place to live allows one to hold a job and create value.
  - kennywinker 2y ago
    Having a place to live allows that. Rent just allows someone to take a portion of your income while you do that.
- gruez 2y ago
  >So, renting out a home. Just the manipulation of social and political environment has already been done. Rent sought, not rent seeking. That makes sense for the land, but not so much for the actual structure that sits on top. The land is going to exist no matter what. the same can't be said of the apartment building .
  - kennywinker 2y ago
    That’s the “without creating new wealth” part of the definition of rent seeking. Now, I’ve lived in a lot of rentals in my life - and not one of my landlords built the home they were renting out. Most or all of those homes had the cost of building them paid off decades ago.

alistairSH 2y ago

There’s a reason people in parts of the US are gravely concerned about the rapid acquisition of housing by PE groups and other large investors. Which, not coincidentally has led to the enshittification of the mobile home park market. Something I wouldn’t have believed possible a decade ago, but her we are.

jodrellblank 2y ago

You’re so close! This is like watching right wing people smugly saying “the phrase women’s rights is such a funny one to me - if we assume women are humans and deserve rights then what next, black rights?” As if they’ve hit a winning argument that of course black people aren’t human and don’t deserve rights so of course women's rights are a nonsense as well. You've started with the assumption that landlording is a good Capitalist respectable thing and nobody could question it, so mocking the thing a landlord does can't possibly have any legs to stand on. But yes! A landlord seeking rent for doing nothing is a parasite! Yes! It’s rent seeking! The people who really try to defend it as difficult and performing a useful service are bad people who benefit from the status quo and lack the imagination and wider experience to see that things like council housing exists and works and benefits people other than the wealthy landowners. If there are two houses and two families could own them and live in them, turning it into one family owning both plots/houses and the the other family paying rent forever is worse. Turning it into one landlord owning both plots/houses and charging both families to live there forever so they don't have to work for a living is worse again. Turning it into a landlord class who both try to squeeze as much rent as possible while lobbying the authorities to block new-house building and reduce tenant's rights is worse again.

kennywinker 2y ago
> You've started with the assumption that landlording is a good Capitalist respectable thing and nobody could question it No, gently calling that into question was entirely my point. I was starting with the assumption that the reader believed that, but I don’t.