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> why should Atlantis not have a real history in it Plato never intended to describe a real city. Atlantis is a metaphor for hubris and the moral decay that fo
by InsideOutSanta 2y ago
> why should Atlantis not have a real history in it
Plato never intended to describe a real city. Atlantis is a metaphor for hubris and the moral decay that follows, which, in my opinion, is quite apparent when you read his descriptions of the city. The details he describes don't make sense as a real city.
- Beijinger 2y agoWell, does it make sense to slay a dragon and take a bath in his blood? It is a metaphor but it has a real basis.
- InsideOutSanta 2y agoI'm not sure if I follow. Are you implying that dragons are real?
- Beijinger 2y agoIt depends. In most Nibelungen texts, he doesn’t encounter a dragon, but rather a long lindworm with shiny armor. In these accounts, someone slays the lindworm, but not through direct combat. Instead, he uses an invisibility cloak, takes the creature's treasure, and bathes in its blood. Later, he meets his end due to treachery. Clearly, this is a work of fantasy. But what about the Roman historian's lament regarding the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest? Over 150 years later, and they’re still singing his tale... the song of Hermann the German. Unfortunately, that song hasn't survived. However, the Nibelungen texts remain, where Siegfried (Hermann) defeats a long worm with shiny armor (symbolizing the Roman legions), not through open battle but by ambush (the cloak of invisibility), seizing their treasure (the dragon’s hoard), and ritually killing their leaders (bathing in blood). And, just like Siegfried, he is ultimately undone by treachery. The parallels are so striking that it seems highly unlikely to be a mere coincidence, especially since Roman writers noted that "his song" endured for an exceptionally long time. The Nibelungen texts IS THIS SONG! I say the Nibelungen Tale is based on facts. And the same may be the case with Atlantis.
- neaden 2y agoWhat is the basis for thinking that it's not just a work of fantasy and has to be a retelling of real events? We have plenty of examples of people making up fantasy stories, why add this extra step that has no evidence for it?
- Beijinger 2y agoHow many coincidences? There are many (slightly different) versions of the text were discovered over a vast area? Germany, Norway etc. It must have been an extremely important "fairy tale". All this should raise suspicion.
- neaden 2y agoI mean, none of the things you've really said feel like coincidences to me since you're basically saying the dragon is a metaphor. And there are plenty of other stories that are found over a large area and have a lot of different versions since that's what happens with oral stories. On the other hand we know people today make up fantasy stories all the time, so thinking that people in the past must have been just what, encoding their history in elaborate metaphor?
- protocolture 2y agoAre you kidding? Folklore survives really well. Next you will tell us Giants are real because of Gilgamesh.
- Beijinger 2y agoI wonder about the intellectual capabilities of some members here. "It's useless to try to explain a thought to someone for whom a hint is not enough." — Nicolás Gómez Dávila
- InsideOutSanta 2y agoI'm even more confused now. You're saying that dragons are not real, because they're a metaphor for the Roman legions? That supports the idea that Atlantis isn't real, because it's similarly a metaphor for something else, right?
- alganet 2y agoThere was a time ancient people broke their own legs, believing it would bring good luck. It is true and written all across ancient records of that time. Scholars don't fully understand why they would do such a thing. Many theories have been presented over the years. A ritual of passage, a demonstration of loyalty as bargain in exchange for a favor from a divinity, or simply a group ritual believed to reinforce the will of those within a social group. Truth is, we will never know. Despite our best efforts, several parts of the original text describing the ritual were lost, only copies of copies remain.
- nartho 2y agoAchilles was bathed by his mom in the river Styx, not in the blood of a dragon. I still don't follow your point though.
- Beijinger 2y ago[flagged]
- nartho 2y agoThis is according to the Achilleid by Publius Statius. if you have different material that you think better establish Achilles' history than the Achilleid please provide it instead of resorting to name calling.
- Beijinger 2y ago"Achilles was bathed by his mom in the river Styx, not in the blood of a dragon." Right. The Problem is, that I never claimed this. And based on the Thread, every half educated person would have realized that this is a quote regarding the Nibelungen tale that was mentioned before.
- nartho 2y agoYou're right, I was ignorant about the Nibelungen and assumed it was about Achilles. If you had just provided the information to me instead of resorting to name calling (twice now) without adding anything to the conversation (comments on HN are supposed to add something to the conversation, I imagine you know that), I would have learned something new, we both would have wasted less time by arguing back and forth, and I would have thought "Hey what a nice and educated guy this Beijinger is" instead of "I guess he is one of those people who have to put other people down in order to feel better about themselves". But you do you.
- Beijinger 2y ago"It's useless to try to explain a thought to someone for whom a hint is not enough." — Nicolás Gómez Dávila