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"If you are like most Americans, chances are, you probably believe that Atlantis or another civilization like it once existed. A survey conducted by Chapman Uni

"If you are like most Americans, chances are, you probably believe that Atlantis or another civilization like it once existed. A survey conducted by Chapman University in October 2014 found that, at that time, roughly 63% of people in the United States agreed or strongly agreed with the statement “ancient, advanced civilizations, such as Atlantis, once existed.” I am pretty sure that Atlantis existed in one way or another. We found that the the Great Flood in the book of Genesis existed, we found that Troy existed, we know that The Song of the Nibelungs / Siegfried existed, why should Atlantis not have a real history in it? And sometimes oral history might be older than we think: Seven Sisters, which corresponds to the Pleiades star cluster. https://theconversation.com/the-worlds-oldest-story-astronomers-say-global-myths-about-seven-sisters-stars-may-reach-back-100-000-years-151568 https://theconversation.com/the-worlds-oldest-story-astronom...

InsideOutSanta 1y ago
> why should Atlantis not have a real history in it Plato never intended to describe a real city. Atlantis is a metaphor for hubris and the moral decay that follows, which, in my opinion, is quite apparent when you read his descriptions of the city. The details he describes don't make sense as a real city.
- Beijinger 1y ago
  Well, does it make sense to slay a dragon and take a bath in his blood? It is a metaphor but it has a real basis.
  - InsideOutSanta 1y ago
    I'm not sure if I follow. Are you implying that dragons are real?
    - Beijinger 1y ago
      It depends. In most Nibelungen texts, he doesn’t encounter a dragon, but rather a long lindworm with shiny armor. In these accounts, someone slays the lindworm, but not through direct combat. Instead, he uses an invisibility cloak, takes the creature's treasure, and bathes in its blood. Later, he meets his end due to treachery. Clearly, this is a work of fantasy. But what about the Roman historian's lament regarding the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest? Over 150 years later, and they’re still singing his tale... the song of Hermann the German. Unfortunately, that song hasn't survived. However, the Nibelungen texts remain, where Siegfried (Hermann) defeats a long worm with shiny armor (symbolizing the Roman legions), not through open battle but by ambush (the cloak of invisibility), seizing their treasure (the dragon’s hoard), and ritually killing their leaders (bathing in blood). And, just like Siegfried, he is ultimately undone by treachery. The parallels are so striking that it seems highly unlikely to be a mere coincidence, especially since Roman writers noted that "his song" endured for an exceptionally long time. The Nibelungen texts IS THIS SONG! I say the Nibelungen Tale is based on facts. And the same may be the case with Atlantis.
      - neaden 1y ago
        What is the basis for thinking that it's not just a work of fantasy and has to be a retelling of real events? We have plenty of examples of people making up fantasy stories, why add this extra step that has no evidence for it?
        Beijinger 1y ago
        How many coincidences? There are many (slightly different) versions of the text were discovered over a vast area? Germany, Norway etc. It must have been an extremely important "fairy tale". All this should raise suspicion.
        neaden 1y ago
        I mean, none of the things you've really said feel like coincidences to me since you're basically saying the dragon is a metaphor. And there are plenty of other stories that are found over a large area and have a lot of different versions since that's what happens with oral stories. On the other hand we know people today make up fantasy stories all the time, so thinking that people in the past must have been just what, encoding their history in elaborate metaphor?
    - alganet 1y ago
      There was a time ancient people broke their own legs, believing it would bring good luck. It is true and written all across ancient records of that time. Scholars don't fully understand why they would do such a thing. Many theories have been presented over the years. A ritual of passage, a demonstration of loyalty as bargain in exchange for a favor from a divinity, or simply a group ritual believed to reinforce the will of those within a social group. Truth is, we will never know. Despite our best efforts, several parts of the original text describing the ritual were lost, only copies of copies remain.
  - nartho 1y ago
    Achilles was bathed by his mom in the river Styx, not in the blood of a dragon. I still don't follow your point though.
    - Beijinger 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - nartho 1y ago
        This is according to the Achilleid by Publius Statius. if you have different material that you think better establish Achilles' history than the Achilleid please provide it instead of resorting to name calling.
        Beijinger 1y ago
        "Achilles was bathed by his mom in the river Styx, not in the blood of a dragon." Right. The Problem is, that I never claimed this. And based on the Thread, every half educated person would have realized that this is a quote regarding the Nibelungen tale that was mentioned before.
        nartho 1y ago
        You're right, I was ignorant about the Nibelungen and assumed it was about Achilles. If you had just provided the information to me instead of resorting to name calling (twice now) without adding anything to the conversation (comments on HN are supposed to add something to the conversation, I imagine you know that), I would have learned something new, we both would have wasted less time by arguing back and forth, and I would have thought "Hey what a nice and educated guy this Beijinger is" instead of "I guess he is one of those people who have to put other people down in order to feel better about themselves". But you do you.
        Beijinger 1y ago
        "It's useless to try to explain a thought to someone for whom a hint is not enough." — Nicolás Gómez Dávila
nrclark 1y ago
> We found that the the Great Flood in the book of Genesis existed Floods are certainly a thing that happens in nature - especially to the flood plains that surrounded large rivers like the Euphrates before dams were a thing. Are you referring to a specific event? Or just floods in general?
- Beijinger 1y ago
  The Black Sea Deluge Hypothesis posits that around 7,500 years ago, the Mediterranean Sea breached the Bosporus Strait, causing a massive influx of water into the Black Sea. This event transformed the Black Sea from a freshwater lake into a saltwater sea, resulting in a dramatic rise in water levels. This rapid flooding would have submerged large areas of land, displacing human settlements along the coastline. The catastrophic nature of this event is believed to have been preserved in the oral traditions of ancient cultures, leading to the creation of flood myths, such as those in the Bible and the Mesopotamian epics like the Epic of Gilgamesh. Archaeological evidence, including submerged prehistoric settlements and shifts in the Black Sea's shoreline, supports the idea of this sudden and profound flooding event. The Black Sea Deluge is considered a key historical event that likely influenced the development of various ancient flood myths across the Near East and beyond.
  - neaden 1y ago
    But that's not the flood in Genesis. Not even close to it, for instance in Genesis the land is flooded and then the waters recede and the land comes back, whereas the Black Sea is still a sea. You're just pointing at a flood and saying it must be the origin of a story of a flood, but there's no basis for it.
    - Beijinger 1y ago
      And where did Noah Land after the flood? Right. Mount Ararat
      - neaden 1y ago
calebio 1y ago
> We found that the the Great Flood in the book of Genesis existed Can you elaborate what you mean by the "Great Flood"? There's certainly evidence for regional megafloods, but I'm not aware of any professional geologic body that recognizes what most people mean when they say "Great Flood", i.e. a single planet-wide flood around that time period.
- Beijinger 1y ago
  The Black Sea Deluge Hypothesis posits that around 7,500 years ago, the Mediterranean Sea breached the Bosporus Strait, causing a massive influx of water into the Black Sea. This event transformed the Black Sea from a freshwater lake into a saltwater sea, resulting in a dramatic rise in water levels. This rapid flooding would have submerged large areas of land, displacing human settlements along the coastline. The catastrophic nature of this event is believed to have been preserved in the oral traditions of ancient cultures, leading to the creation of flood myths, such as those in the Bible and the Mesopotamian epics like the Epic of Gilgamesh. Archaeological evidence, including submerged prehistoric settlements and shifts in the Black Sea's shoreline, supports the idea of this sudden and profound flooding event. The Black Sea Deluge is considered a key historical event that likely influenced the development of various ancient flood myths across the Near East and beyond.
- fads_go 1y ago
  "most people mean" implies most people since the King James version was published. Not at all clear that's what author meant; the concept of the world as we now know it didn't exist then. So very reasonable to conclude that the Great Flood in Genesis was meant to describe a regional megaflood, which innundated the "whole world" meaning all of Mesopotamian civilization. And there is archeological evidence of ancient cities totally buried in mud, i.e. as you say regional megafloods.
  - neaden 1y ago
    I don't think that's true at all. The narrative is very clear that all humans and land animals that are not on the ark die, and in the Talmud I'm not aware of any debate that all humans died.
bediger4000 1y ago
> We found that the the Great Flood in the book of Genesis existed Sure, in Babylonian cuneiform texts. Other than that, no. A worldwide flood absolutely did not happen. Why should Atlantis not have existed? The Atlantic sea floor is not crust, totally different rock chemistry.
neaden 1y ago
What do you mean we found out that Troy existed? We always knew it existed, it continued to exist as a city until about around 1300 AD, it's present in the Homeric stories along with Gods, but so are a bunch of other cities and like those cities we have other attestations for Troy like coins from there, inscriptions, etc. There was some debate about how old the city was and if it had moved a few miles over the centuries (it didn't), but no serious scholar ever suggested Troy was not real.

InsideOutSanta 1y ago

> why should Atlantis not have a real history in it Plato never intended to describe a real city. Atlantis is a metaphor for hubris and the moral decay that follows, which, in my opinion, is quite apparent when you read his descriptions of the city. The details he describes don't make sense as a real city.

Beijinger 1y ago
Well, does it make sense to slay a dragon and take a bath in his blood? It is a metaphor but it has a real basis.
- InsideOutSanta 1y ago
  I'm not sure if I follow. Are you implying that dragons are real?
  - Beijinger 1y ago
    It depends. In most Nibelungen texts, he doesn’t encounter a dragon, but rather a long lindworm with shiny armor. In these accounts, someone slays the lindworm, but not through direct combat. Instead, he uses an invisibility cloak, takes the creature's treasure, and bathes in its blood. Later, he meets his end due to treachery. Clearly, this is a work of fantasy. But what about the Roman historian's lament regarding the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest? Over 150 years later, and they’re still singing his tale... the song of Hermann the German. Unfortunately, that song hasn't survived. However, the Nibelungen texts remain, where Siegfried (Hermann) defeats a long worm with shiny armor (symbolizing the Roman legions), not through open battle but by ambush (the cloak of invisibility), seizing their treasure (the dragon’s hoard), and ritually killing their leaders (bathing in blood). And, just like Siegfried, he is ultimately undone by treachery. The parallels are so striking that it seems highly unlikely to be a mere coincidence, especially since Roman writers noted that "his song" endured for an exceptionally long time. The Nibelungen texts IS THIS SONG! I say the Nibelungen Tale is based on facts. And the same may be the case with Atlantis.
    - neaden 1y ago
      What is the basis for thinking that it's not just a work of fantasy and has to be a retelling of real events? We have plenty of examples of people making up fantasy stories, why add this extra step that has no evidence for it?
      - Beijinger 1y ago
        How many coincidences? There are many (slightly different) versions of the text were discovered over a vast area? Germany, Norway etc. It must have been an extremely important "fairy tale". All this should raise suspicion.
        neaden 1y ago
        I mean, none of the things you've really said feel like coincidences to me since you're basically saying the dragon is a metaphor. And there are plenty of other stories that are found over a large area and have a lot of different versions since that's what happens with oral stories. On the other hand we know people today make up fantasy stories all the time, so thinking that people in the past must have been just what, encoding their history in elaborate metaphor?
  - alganet 1y ago
    There was a time ancient people broke their own legs, believing it would bring good luck. It is true and written all across ancient records of that time. Scholars don't fully understand why they would do such a thing. Many theories have been presented over the years. A ritual of passage, a demonstration of loyalty as bargain in exchange for a favor from a divinity, or simply a group ritual believed to reinforce the will of those within a social group. Truth is, we will never know. Despite our best efforts, several parts of the original text describing the ritual were lost, only copies of copies remain.
- nartho 1y ago
  Achilles was bathed by his mom in the river Styx, not in the blood of a dragon. I still don't follow your point though.
  - Beijinger 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - nartho 1y ago
      This is according to the Achilleid by Publius Statius. if you have different material that you think better establish Achilles' history than the Achilleid please provide it instead of resorting to name calling.
      - Beijinger 1y ago
        "Achilles was bathed by his mom in the river Styx, not in the blood of a dragon." Right. The Problem is, that I never claimed this. And based on the Thread, every half educated person would have realized that this is a quote regarding the Nibelungen tale that was mentioned before.
        nartho 1y ago
        You're right, I was ignorant about the Nibelungen and assumed it was about Achilles. If you had just provided the information to me instead of resorting to name calling (twice now) without adding anything to the conversation (comments on HN are supposed to add something to the conversation, I imagine you know that), I would have learned something new, we both would have wasted less time by arguing back and forth, and I would have thought "Hey what a nice and educated guy this Beijinger is" instead of "I guess he is one of those people who have to put other people down in order to feel better about themselves". But you do you.
        Beijinger 1y ago
        "It's useless to try to explain a thought to someone for whom a hint is not enough." — Nicolás Gómez Dávila

nrclark 1y ago

> We found that the the Great Flood in the book of Genesis existed Floods are certainly a thing that happens in nature - especially to the flood plains that surrounded large rivers like the Euphrates before dams were a thing. Are you referring to a specific event? Or just floods in general?

Beijinger 1y ago
The Black Sea Deluge Hypothesis posits that around 7,500 years ago, the Mediterranean Sea breached the Bosporus Strait, causing a massive influx of water into the Black Sea. This event transformed the Black Sea from a freshwater lake into a saltwater sea, resulting in a dramatic rise in water levels. This rapid flooding would have submerged large areas of land, displacing human settlements along the coastline. The catastrophic nature of this event is believed to have been preserved in the oral traditions of ancient cultures, leading to the creation of flood myths, such as those in the Bible and the Mesopotamian epics like the Epic of Gilgamesh. Archaeological evidence, including submerged prehistoric settlements and shifts in the Black Sea's shoreline, supports the idea of this sudden and profound flooding event. The Black Sea Deluge is considered a key historical event that likely influenced the development of various ancient flood myths across the Near East and beyond.
- neaden 1y ago
  But that's not the flood in Genesis. Not even close to it, for instance in Genesis the land is flooded and then the waters recede and the land comes back, whereas the Black Sea is still a sea. You're just pointing at a flood and saying it must be the origin of a story of a flood, but there's no basis for it.
  - Beijinger 1y ago
    And where did Noah Land after the flood? Right. Mount Ararat
    - neaden 1y ago

calebio 1y ago

> We found that the the Great Flood in the book of Genesis existed Can you elaborate what you mean by the "Great Flood"? There's certainly evidence for regional megafloods, but I'm not aware of any professional geologic body that recognizes what most people mean when they say "Great Flood", i.e. a single planet-wide flood around that time period.

Beijinger 1y ago
The Black Sea Deluge Hypothesis posits that around 7,500 years ago, the Mediterranean Sea breached the Bosporus Strait, causing a massive influx of water into the Black Sea. This event transformed the Black Sea from a freshwater lake into a saltwater sea, resulting in a dramatic rise in water levels. This rapid flooding would have submerged large areas of land, displacing human settlements along the coastline. The catastrophic nature of this event is believed to have been preserved in the oral traditions of ancient cultures, leading to the creation of flood myths, such as those in the Bible and the Mesopotamian epics like the Epic of Gilgamesh. Archaeological evidence, including submerged prehistoric settlements and shifts in the Black Sea's shoreline, supports the idea of this sudden and profound flooding event. The Black Sea Deluge is considered a key historical event that likely influenced the development of various ancient flood myths across the Near East and beyond.
fads_go 1y ago
"most people mean" implies most people since the King James version was published. Not at all clear that's what author meant; the concept of the world as we now know it didn't exist then. So very reasonable to conclude that the Great Flood in Genesis was meant to describe a regional megaflood, which innundated the "whole world" meaning all of Mesopotamian civilization. And there is archeological evidence of ancient cities totally buried in mud, i.e. as you say regional megafloods.
- neaden 1y ago
  I don't think that's true at all. The narrative is very clear that all humans and land animals that are not on the ark die, and in the Talmud I'm not aware of any debate that all humans died.

bediger4000 1y ago

> We found that the the Great Flood in the book of Genesis existed Sure, in Babylonian cuneiform texts. Other than that, no. A worldwide flood absolutely did not happen. Why should Atlantis not have existed? The Atlantic sea floor is not crust, totally different rock chemistry.

neaden 1y ago

What do you mean we found out that Troy existed? We always knew it existed, it continued to exist as a city until about around 1300 AD, it's present in the Homeric stories along with Gods, but so are a bunch of other cities and like those cities we have other attestations for Troy like coins from there, inscriptions, etc. There was some debate about how old the city was and if it had moved a few miles over the centuries (it didn't), but no serious scholar ever suggested Troy was not real.