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China literally just subsidized soar panel manufacturing to the time of several billions of dollars with the express goal of killing manufacturing everywhere el

China literally just subsidized soar panel manufacturing to the time of several billions of dollars with the express goal of killing manufacturing everywhere else and then raising prices once the competition was gone.

cogman10 2y ago
There's really no reason the US or other major economies couldn't have followed suit. The chinese plan only works because the other major economies are more than willing to give them that manufacturing capacity since it means a local (although somewhat temporary) boon. The whole plan could have been snookered by the US similarly subsidizing their solar production 10 or 20 years into the chinese plan. Which would have put most of the cost onto China while we reaped the benefits of cheap power production.
- jandrese 2y ago
  The Obama administration tried, but it was too little too late and they were raked over the coals by Republicans for "choosing winners". But fundamentally solar cell production was (is?) pretty dirty and US environmental regulations were always going to be a stumbling block. One used to be able to spot Chinese solar factories on satellite maps by looking upstream from deadzones, but apparently that has been enough of an embarrassment that even the CCP has started cracking down.
  - anonymars 2y ago
    And choosing "losers", specifically Solyndra was shrieked at along the lines of Benghazi Basically DOE funded research pretty successfully but it only takes one failure for the loud voices to win Same program funded Tesla as I recall Example source: https://www.reuters.com/article/world/us/exclusive-controversial-us-energy-loan-program-has-wiped-out-losses-idUSKCN0IX0A0/ https://www.reuters.com/article/world/us/exclusive-controver...
  - pfdietz 2y ago
    > But fundamentally solar cell production was (is?) pretty dirty There's nothing "fundamentally" dirty about it. It's not like fossil fuel combustion that inevitably produces a large stream of waste (CO2).
- gamblor956 2y ago
  WTO prohibit these types of subsidies. Every other country in the world was trying to follow the rules. This is why the U.S. was able to impose punitive tariffs on Chinese solar without WTO interference.
deleted 2y ago
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klipt 2y ago
Wow, only several billion dollars? That's like 0.1% of the US federal budget.
vikramkr 2y ago
yeah, pretty smart move. We shoulda done that too - controlling the means of production for energy generation is a pretty useful thing imo.
worewood 2y ago
environmental "awareness" doesn't mean dog poo; environment-friendly will only be prioritized when it's cheaper to do so. That's why government subsidies and taxing are REQUIRED. The western world should have subsidized it too, now you can't dismiss it because it wasn't organic--because it NEVER would be organic.
philipkglass 2y ago
China has accounted for the majority of global solar panel manufacturing for over 10 years now: https://www.statista.com/chart/1576/chinese-solar-photovoltaic-production-soars/ https://www.statista.com/chart/1576/chinese-solar-photovolta... Despite that dominance, prices continue to fall: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/solar-pv-prices https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/solar-pv-prices As an addendum, the US also saw a rapid increase in domestic solar panel manufacturing in recent years: https://seia.org/news/american-solar-panel-manufacturing-capacity-increases-71-q1-2024-industry-reaches-200-gigawatt/ https://seia.org/news/american-solar-panel-manufacturing-cap... But that was due to government incentives that are now under fire from the Trump administration.

cogman10 2y ago

There's really no reason the US or other major economies couldn't have followed suit. The chinese plan only works because the other major economies are more than willing to give them that manufacturing capacity since it means a local (although somewhat temporary) boon. The whole plan could have been snookered by the US similarly subsidizing their solar production 10 or 20 years into the chinese plan. Which would have put most of the cost onto China while we reaped the benefits of cheap power production.

jandrese 2y ago
The Obama administration tried, but it was too little too late and they were raked over the coals by Republicans for "choosing winners". But fundamentally solar cell production was (is?) pretty dirty and US environmental regulations were always going to be a stumbling block. One used to be able to spot Chinese solar factories on satellite maps by looking upstream from deadzones, but apparently that has been enough of an embarrassment that even the CCP has started cracking down.
- anonymars 2y ago
  And choosing "losers", specifically Solyndra was shrieked at along the lines of Benghazi Basically DOE funded research pretty successfully but it only takes one failure for the loud voices to win Same program funded Tesla as I recall Example source: https://www.reuters.com/article/world/us/exclusive-controversial-us-energy-loan-program-has-wiped-out-losses-idUSKCN0IX0A0/ https://www.reuters.com/article/world/us/exclusive-controver...
- pfdietz 2y ago
  > But fundamentally solar cell production was (is?) pretty dirty There's nothing "fundamentally" dirty about it. It's not like fossil fuel combustion that inevitably produces a large stream of waste (CO2).
gamblor956 2y ago
WTO prohibit these types of subsidies. Every other country in the world was trying to follow the rules. This is why the U.S. was able to impose punitive tariffs on Chinese solar without WTO interference.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

klipt 2y ago

Wow, only several billion dollars? That's like 0.1% of the US federal budget.

vikramkr 2y ago

yeah, pretty smart move. We shoulda done that too - controlling the means of production for energy generation is a pretty useful thing imo.

worewood 2y ago

environmental "awareness" doesn't mean dog poo; environment-friendly will only be prioritized when it's cheaper to do so. That's why government subsidies and taxing are REQUIRED. The western world should have subsidized it too, now you can't dismiss it because it wasn't organic--because it NEVER would be organic.

philipkglass 2y ago

China has accounted for the majority of global solar panel manufacturing for over 10 years now: https://www.statista.com/chart/1576/chinese-solar-photovoltaic-production-soars/ https://www.statista.com/chart/1576/chinese-solar-photovolta... Despite that dominance, prices continue to fall: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/solar-pv-prices https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/solar-pv-prices As an addendum, the US also saw a rapid increase in domestic solar panel manufacturing in recent years: https://seia.org/news/american-solar-panel-manufacturing-capacity-increases-71-q1-2024-industry-reaches-200-gigawatt/ https://seia.org/news/american-solar-panel-manufacturing-cap... But that was due to government incentives that are now under fire from the Trump administration.