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> I can solve for a firing solution against any target, stealth or not, with the details in these texts. By texts you mean the Wikipedia articles? Which detail

by mmooss 2y ago

> I can solve for a firing solution against any target, stealth or not, with the details in these texts. By texts you mean the Wikipedia articles? Which details? I don't see much. > Everything is vulnerable when coming into its own—jets’ aren’t at home on carrier decks. How does that apply here? They didn't shoot down the F-117 as it landed or took off, but in the air over Serbia.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> you mean the Wikipedia articles? Which details? Takeoff times and ships. > didn't shoot down the F-117 as it landed or took off, but in the air over Serbia In Serbia they had a full mission profile. The commonality is knowing where something will be when. The difference between the situations is hitting something low, slow and above a relatively-uniform body like the ocean is a lot easier than doing so when it’s high and fast.
- mmooss 2y ago
  > In Serbia they had a full mission profile. Perhaps you have independent knowledge of the episode but the Wikipedia articles you cite only say the Serbs knew that the flights departed in the evening and that the mission wouldn't have its jamming and suppression support aircraft. Anyway, I think we agree that the info Hesgeth reportedly shared would be a danger to pilots and missions if the enemy has any anti-aircraft capability. Another way of looking at it was that hubris was the threat both times.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > if the enemy has any anti-aircraft capability The Houthis have these [1]. [1] https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/irans-support-houthi-air-defenses-yemen https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/irans-su...
bigyabai 2y ago
Not sure why you're so skeptical. This was a widely reported incident, it is highly-studied in tactical circles and information on the shootdown is available online and in print. The details they are referring to is likely the flight schedule and formations of the various missions flying out of the airbase. Knowing that a stealth aircraft has no anti-radiation escort means that you can illuminate them with a high-powered radar and not expose yourself as a target. In 1999 it would not be infeasible to use EOTS for a targeting solution too, like the parent comment says all you have to do is "solve" for the constraints. > How does that apply here? Because jets don't materialize in midair when they're needed and disappear when their mission is over. They are logistical nightmares to plan for, and part of that chain of logistics concerns keeping your flight plans private. Otherwise, you risk pilot lives so your enemy can use 1950s tactics against you. Air combat isn't the Cold War anymore, shootdowns like the one in 1999 emphasize how important secrecy is in contested airspace.
- mmooss 2y ago
  > The details they are referring to is likely ... Instead of guessing (wrongly), just read the Wikipedia articles. > Because jets don't materialize in midair when they're needed and disappear when their mission is over. They are logistical nightmares Yes, but the GGP says they are vulnerable during takeoff and landing, which is irrelevant to this event. > This was a widely reported incident, it is highly-studied in tactical circles and information on the shootdown is available online and in print. I think neither of you read the Wikipedia articles and that's why you don't understand the conversation. If you have something to add, please do.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    You’re confusing two commenters, one who brought up Serbia, the other—me—speaking to the facts and circumstance relevant to this incident. The details in Hegseth’s messages would allow an actor like the Houthis to take out our jets on takeoff and landing. We tightly guard those details because they’re highly actionable tactical intel. The fact that a drunk TV influencer didn’t get that isn’t surprising.

by mmooss 2y ago

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> you mean the Wikipedia articles? Which details? Takeoff times and ships. > didn't shoot down the F-117 as it landed or took off, but in the air over Serbia In Serbia they had a full mission profile. The commonality is knowing where something will be when. The difference between the situations is hitting something low, slow and above a relatively-uniform body like the ocean is a lot easier than doing so when it’s high and fast.

mmooss 2y ago
> In Serbia they had a full mission profile. Perhaps you have independent knowledge of the episode but the Wikipedia articles you cite only say the Serbs knew that the flights departed in the evening and that the mission wouldn't have its jamming and suppression support aircraft. Anyway, I think we agree that the info Hesgeth reportedly shared would be a danger to pilots and missions if the enemy has any anti-aircraft capability. Another way of looking at it was that hubris was the threat both times.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > if the enemy has any anti-aircraft capability The Houthis have these [1]. [1] https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/irans-support-houthi-air-defenses-yemen https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/irans-su...

bigyabai 2y ago

Not sure why you're so skeptical. This was a widely reported incident, it is highly-studied in tactical circles and information on the shootdown is available online and in print. The details they are referring to is likely the flight schedule and formations of the various missions flying out of the airbase. Knowing that a stealth aircraft has no anti-radiation escort means that you can illuminate them with a high-powered radar and not expose yourself as a target. In 1999 it would not be infeasible to use EOTS for a targeting solution too, like the parent comment says all you have to do is "solve" for the constraints. > How does that apply here? Because jets don't materialize in midair when they're needed and disappear when their mission is over. They are logistical nightmares to plan for, and part of that chain of logistics concerns keeping your flight plans private. Otherwise, you risk pilot lives so your enemy can use 1950s tactics against you. Air combat isn't the Cold War anymore, shootdowns like the one in 1999 emphasize how important secrecy is in contested airspace.

mmooss 2y ago
> The details they are referring to is likely ... Instead of guessing (wrongly), just read the Wikipedia articles. > Because jets don't materialize in midair when they're needed and disappear when their mission is over. They are logistical nightmares Yes, but the GGP says they are vulnerable during takeoff and landing, which is irrelevant to this event. > This was a widely reported incident, it is highly-studied in tactical circles and information on the shootdown is available online and in print. I think neither of you read the Wikipedia articles and that's why you don't understand the conversation. If you have something to add, please do.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  You’re confusing two commenters, one who brought up Serbia, the other—me—speaking to the facts and circumstance relevant to this incident. The details in Hegseth’s messages would allow an actor like the Houthis to take out our jets on takeoff and landing. We tightly guard those details because they’re highly actionable tactical intel. The fact that a drunk TV influencer didn’t get that isn’t surprising.