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Hot take, but that's why I'm fed up with "anti-colonial" activists who act like it's time to just drop our responsibilities on the former colonies and now "thir

Hot take, but that's why I'm fed up with "anti-colonial" activists who act like it's time to just drop our responsibilities on the former colonies and now "third world" countries. It has been shown many times before, with this shitshow being the latest example, that most "third world" countries simply do not have a legal system in place that can cope with rich Western or new-rich Asian exploiteers. In turn, that means that yes, Western countries need to step in on all levels until these countries have robust enough systems to stand up for their interests (and not those of rich "businessmen" and scammers) on their own!

saagarjha 2y ago
Anti-colonial people will typically ask for reparations to solve exactly this problem. Coming in, ruining a country, and then bailing is exactly what they take issue with.
- mschuster91 2y ago
  > Coming in, ruining a country, and then bailing is exactly what they take issue with. I proposed doing exactly the counter: coming in and staying until the situation is tenable. > Anti-colonial people will typically ask for reparations to solve exactly this problem. Money isn't everything. When the judiciary is compromised and/or incompetent, no amount of money can prevent a situation like the one described here.
  - saagarjha 2y ago
    Yes, my point is that they would agree with you
mmooss 2y ago
> drop our responsibilities on the former colonies The West wasn't responsible, but rapacious. The colonialists are the "rich Western or new-rich Asian exploiteers", and always have been. That's who the anti-colonialists have pushed back against. > now "third world" countries Nobody in that field has used that word in a long time. Africa - an enormous place that can't be described in one way, has many countries doing very well. > Western countries need to step in That should be up to the people in those countries, not you or me or some powerful Westerner. Usually it doesn't work out well for their interests - the colonial powers use the countries for their interests.
- mschuster91 2y ago
  > Africa - an enormous place that can't be described in one way, has many countries doing very well. And a shitload of countries in the hold of some warlord or other despot, or like Libya or Sudan on the verge of collapse. Something needs to be done about these countries and their resources - they deserve to be utilized in a way benefitting all citizens, not just the junta in power. > That should be up to the people in those countries, not you or me or some powerful Westerner. That assumes a democratic structure and the ability of the people in those countries to have a voice in said democracy. Both are far from given. Unfortunately, democracy doesn't come on its own, particularly not if the elites are the ones holding all the guns, so there needs to be a system in place to support actual democracy and getting rid of kleptocrats, autocrats and similar powers.
  - gessha 2y ago
    > Something needs to be done about these countries and their resources - they deserve to be utilized in a way benefitting all citizens, not just the junta in power. This utilitarian way of thinking mixed with a lot of racism is what led to colonists performing asinine acts of barbaric cruelty like slavery, massacres, etc. If I were to look up terms related to this type of thinking I would look up: Neo-colonialism, savior complex, and paternalism. > Unfortunately, democracy doesn't come on its own Who started the first democracies on Earth, aliens?
    - mschuster91 2y ago
      > Who started the first democracies on Earth, aliens? The people - but at least back then, the rulers only had knives, swords, horses and maybe early versions of guns at their disposal. Today's rulers? They enjoy grenades, insane explosives, machine guns, sniper rifles, tear gas, tanks and the most capable surveillance gear that money can buy. It has gone exponentially harder to depose dictators, and outright impossible without serious amounts of external help. IMHO, it should be the responsibility of all rich, Western democracies to aid any and all democratic movements and to safeguard them against reactionary movements.
alienthrowaway 2y ago
> It has been shown many times before, with this shitshow being the latest example, that most "third world" countries simply do not have a legal system in place that can cope with rich Western or new-rich Asian exploiteers It's almost as if the colonisers designed it that way. Sowing division, encouraging corruption and infighting while the actual administration was done from abroad, and just enough of it to keep the resources flowing out without regard for any long-term societal improvement for the natives. The same old colonial resource-extraction companies are still exploiting the countries that are allegedly "independent", but whose leaders are thoroughly bribed and have bank accounts and "investments" in Luxembourg, France, Dubai, the UK and the US that the former-colonisers are aware off. You want them to return and do achieve which goals, exactly? Cock-block China? No one is naive enough to think recolonisation can have benevolent intentions or executed benevolently. If the west has an appetite for another round of sustained guerilla warfare and terror-tactics, then direct political control is the way to go, if not, then they should consider maintaining the status quo of monetary and service imperialism enabled by corruption, the WTO, the World Bank, the petro-dollar and the USD as the global reserve currency.

saagarjha 2y ago

Anti-colonial people will typically ask for reparations to solve exactly this problem. Coming in, ruining a country, and then bailing is exactly what they take issue with.

mschuster91 2y ago
> Coming in, ruining a country, and then bailing is exactly what they take issue with. I proposed doing exactly the counter: coming in and staying until the situation is tenable. > Anti-colonial people will typically ask for reparations to solve exactly this problem. Money isn't everything. When the judiciary is compromised and/or incompetent, no amount of money can prevent a situation like the one described here.
- saagarjha 2y ago
  Yes, my point is that they would agree with you

mmooss 2y ago

> drop our responsibilities on the former colonies The West wasn't responsible, but rapacious. The colonialists are the "rich Western or new-rich Asian exploiteers", and always have been. That's who the anti-colonialists have pushed back against. > now "third world" countries Nobody in that field has used that word in a long time. Africa - an enormous place that can't be described in one way, has many countries doing very well. > Western countries need to step in That should be up to the people in those countries, not you or me or some powerful Westerner. Usually it doesn't work out well for their interests - the colonial powers use the countries for their interests.

mschuster91 2y ago
> Africa - an enormous place that can't be described in one way, has many countries doing very well. And a shitload of countries in the hold of some warlord or other despot, or like Libya or Sudan on the verge of collapse. Something needs to be done about these countries and their resources - they deserve to be utilized in a way benefitting all citizens, not just the junta in power. > That should be up to the people in those countries, not you or me or some powerful Westerner. That assumes a democratic structure and the ability of the people in those countries to have a voice in said democracy. Both are far from given. Unfortunately, democracy doesn't come on its own, particularly not if the elites are the ones holding all the guns, so there needs to be a system in place to support actual democracy and getting rid of kleptocrats, autocrats and similar powers.
- gessha 2y ago
  > Something needs to be done about these countries and their resources - they deserve to be utilized in a way benefitting all citizens, not just the junta in power. This utilitarian way of thinking mixed with a lot of racism is what led to colonists performing asinine acts of barbaric cruelty like slavery, massacres, etc. If I were to look up terms related to this type of thinking I would look up: Neo-colonialism, savior complex, and paternalism. > Unfortunately, democracy doesn't come on its own Who started the first democracies on Earth, aliens?
  - mschuster91 2y ago
    > Who started the first democracies on Earth, aliens? The people - but at least back then, the rulers only had knives, swords, horses and maybe early versions of guns at their disposal. Today's rulers? They enjoy grenades, insane explosives, machine guns, sniper rifles, tear gas, tanks and the most capable surveillance gear that money can buy. It has gone exponentially harder to depose dictators, and outright impossible without serious amounts of external help. IMHO, it should be the responsibility of all rich, Western democracies to aid any and all democratic movements and to safeguard them against reactionary movements.

alienthrowaway 2y ago

> It has been shown many times before, with this shitshow being the latest example, that most "third world" countries simply do not have a legal system in place that can cope with rich Western or new-rich Asian exploiteers It's almost as if the colonisers designed it that way. Sowing division, encouraging corruption and infighting while the actual administration was done from abroad, and just enough of it to keep the resources flowing out without regard for any long-term societal improvement for the natives. The same old colonial resource-extraction companies are still exploiting the countries that are allegedly "independent", but whose leaders are thoroughly bribed and have bank accounts and "investments" in Luxembourg, France, Dubai, the UK and the US that the former-colonisers are aware off. You want them to return and do achieve which goals, exactly? Cock-block China? No one is naive enough to think recolonisation can have benevolent intentions or executed benevolently. If the west has an appetite for another round of sustained guerilla warfare and terror-tactics, then direct political control is the way to go, if not, then they should consider maintaining the status quo of monetary and service imperialism enabled by corruption, the WTO, the World Bank, the petro-dollar and the USD as the global reserve currency.