8 ms·

India outsourcing back to USA

128 points by nightbrawler 14y ago

mark_l_watson 14y ago
After the dot com bust, they only interesting consulting job I could get as a 5 month gig for an Indian company writing a Java Sharepoint clone. They did not pay very well, but the work was satisfying. I have also had two remote gigs from China and a few from Europe. Earth seems flat (in the Thomas Freidman sense) to me! Btw, I live in the mountains of Central Arizona.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- reddit_clone 14y ago
  Sharepoint clone in Java in 5 months? I am intrigued. Want to share any details?
  - mark_l_watson 14y ago
    Sure. All files stored on disk. Meta data stored in memory using prevalence. I used JSP and custom tag libraries.
AndrewDucker 14y ago
More accurately - Indian outsourcing companies have become global outsourcing companies, providing services from wherever is cheapest/most efficient.
- freehunter 14y ago
  On some projects, we work with an Indian outsourcing company (not necessarily an off-shoring company) to get temporary programmers to assist with a project. There have been a few cases where we went to India to find workers, and the Indian company came back to the city and found us a local contractor when local outsourcing companies could not. In talking with these people, they got more work from partnering with Indian companies than they did with local companies.
monsterix 14y ago
The title and premise of the article seem totally flawed. The reason why Aegis has opted to hire locals within US is for their native American accent. The cost of vocal training of an average Indian employee is quite high. Given the attrition rate and gap in quality of delivered service, it makes sense for these companies to find out ways to sustain and meet standards. That's why cheap hire of people who "lack high school diplomas" makes sense in the US. This does not in anyway suggest that India is now 'outsourcing' back to United States. That is likely to happen only after huge and reverse tilting between the two economies [Assuming China does not exist!]. IMO, this move on part of the company indicates only their incapacity to serve from India. In other words the article is just an ego-massage fluff piece. [Language fixes]
- antidoh 14y ago
  That, and maybe combined with outsourcing companies being mostly Indian because of the last decade, and really good at sourcing.
  - monsterix 14y ago
    Yeah, it takes away the pain of finding alternate services and redo the contracts (read lazy managers at OEMs).
- mseebach 14y ago
  What you're describing are the exact same mechanisms that led US companies to outsource to India, but working in reverse.
  - monsterix 14y ago
    No. Cost of hiring in America was the only reason why outsourcing took shape. India was the largest population which had advantage of basic English education; and thus it was in a good position to serve such an emerging market at low cost. Only now people have realized that English is different from Hinglish, Chinglish, Finglish, Singlish and cost-wise it is okay (economical and easier) to hire "barely educated" within the States than to train someone in Asia who would jerk the consumer experience quite often. I think both situations are completely different.
DanBC 14y ago
> Capuana, a manager for Aegis in New York, motivates this U.S. office with dress-down days Can anyone explain to me why a call centre worker needs to be dressed 'up' most days?
- tathagata 14y ago
  Some dresses can be distracting.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- freehunter 14y ago
  When I worked tech support, I asked this same question of my management. The answer was professionalism. The same reason why most interviewing experts or interviewing articles will tell you to put on a tie for a phone interview: the way you dress influences the way you comport yourself. Doing professional tech support requires a professional behavior that a t-shirt and jeans won't bring about. This might be different if you're doing tech support for a valley start-up.
  - PakG1 14y ago
    I'd be interested in studies on this because I've heard the same thing over and over again, but I don't believe it.
    - AndrewDucker 14y ago
      I don't believe it either. I've never seen any evidence that forcing people to wear a tie has a long-term effect on their behaviour.
      - potatolicious 14y ago
        I don't believe it's just about how your comport yourself to clients, but also to establish a hierarchy and pecking order within the organization itself. The employer may feel that the caliber of people they are hiring requires a very strict, by-the-books mode of operation, and forcing uniforms of people goes a long way towards showing who's in charge, and enforcing discipline.
auser678 14y ago
Yes, this is true.I know a lot of companies that are hiring more in the US and opening offices. This trend is going to continue. USA has some exceptional people and skillsets, and so do Indians. It will be a win win situation.
- slurgfest 14y ago
  This is what the term "negative externalities" was invented to cover. It is a win-win situation for those who successfully outsource - getting good work at lower cost. It is a win-win situation for those who get decent work. However, it is not a win-win situation for those who cannot get a job or who take a big pay cut or worse conditions because so much of the work in their sector has been outsourced. Perhaps you could say it is a win-win-lose situation.
  - tatsuke95 14y ago
    Like you describe, out-sourcing generally provides a net-benefit to society by providing cheaper goods here and jobs in India. But it does not necessary produce a net-benefit to the US, since the trade off is cheaper goods but fewer American jobs. As a global citizen, I'm not concerned about the latter.
    - v0cab 14y ago
      Problem is, other countries aren't necessarily as open as we are to outsourcing and foreign labour. For instance, Western universities have many Asian professors, especially in Math, Science, and Engineering. But South Korean universities very rarely employ foreign professors, at least not full professors. This goes for many jobs in South Korea -- they simply don't want foreigners to do it, because foreigners aren't Korean. The exception is teaching English Conversation, because the Korean teachers very obviously can't do it well enough themselves. The government is trying to limit South Korea's reliance on foreign ESL teachers though. This goes for outsourcing too -- the UK government is happy to consider having foreign companies build nuclear power plants or railway lines in the UK, but the South Korean government would rather have everything in South Korea done by South Korean companies, even setting up a company to do it if necessary. When Westerners open their labour markets to foreigners and foreign companies, what can they do if the foreigners do not reciprocate?
ionforce 14y ago
"Near-sourcing" aka hiring? It's silly that we have to resort to jargon.
forgotAgain 14y ago
The article is 15 months old. This particular trend seems to have lasted for a very short period of time.
smountcastle 14y ago
I wonder how much profit there is to create loops? Company outsources to India which outsources to the US which outsources back to India which outsources back to the US, etc. I guess they make it work by finding cheap labor in the US (compared to training Indians).
pavel_lishin 14y ago
> hustle the phones Buzzword bingo.
suhastech 14y ago
I think with the advent of the internet, the disparity in the world economy is being normalised. In India, just 6-7 years back, $200/month was a good salary where one could lead a a happy life. Nowayadays, $1000/mo is fairly manageable (still very low compared to world standards). Inflation is up, living standards is improving, costs have risen and so are the income expectations. So, this might not be surprising. Just my thoughts.
vexxt 14y ago
H1-B visa abuse must be stopped.
- mycodebreaks 14y ago
  Agreed, no abuse should be tolerated. However, it's impossible to get h1b visas for call center workers.
  - vexxt 14y ago
    You sure? You can get H-1B for people with no work lined up! Those damn desi firms.
    - mycodebreaks 14y ago
      You must report abuse then. Be a vigilant citizen.
- auser678 14y ago
  I would change the statement to 'The US Visa laws are broken'. Empirically H1-B demand is tied to the demand for highly skilled people. There have been years when it was allotted via lottery and there were years when the quota was not filled up. The companies using H1 already pay a high penalty in terms of the very high fees, which is non refundable even if the visa is rejected. It is a source of revenue to the US govt
therandomguy 14y ago
How is a company hiring in a different country 'outsourcing'? It would be outsourcing if Aegis is giving work to another company in US.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
y4m4 14y ago
The Article is from 2011 what a joke!

128 points by nightbrawler 14y ago

After the dot com bust, they only interesting consulting job I could get as a 5 month gig for an Indian company writing a Java Sharepoint clone. They did not pay very well, but the work was satisfying. I have also had two remote gigs from China and a few from Europe. Earth seems flat (in the Thomas Freidman sense) to me! Btw, I live in the mountains of Central Arizona.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
reddit_clone 14y ago
Sharepoint clone in Java in 5 months? I am intrigued. Want to share any details?
- mark_l_watson 14y ago
  Sure. All files stored on disk. Meta data stored in memory using prevalence. I used JSP and custom tag libraries.

AndrewDucker 14y ago

More accurately - Indian outsourcing companies have become global outsourcing companies, providing services from wherever is cheapest/most efficient.

freehunter 14y ago
On some projects, we work with an Indian outsourcing company (not necessarily an off-shoring company) to get temporary programmers to assist with a project. There have been a few cases where we went to India to find workers, and the Indian company came back to the city and found us a local contractor when local outsourcing companies could not. In talking with these people, they got more work from partnering with Indian companies than they did with local companies.

monsterix 14y ago

The title and premise of the article seem totally flawed. The reason why Aegis has opted to hire locals within US is for their native American accent. The cost of vocal training of an average Indian employee is quite high. Given the attrition rate and gap in quality of delivered service, it makes sense for these companies to find out ways to sustain and meet standards. That's why cheap hire of people who "lack high school diplomas" makes sense in the US. This does not in anyway suggest that India is now 'outsourcing' back to United States. That is likely to happen only after huge and reverse tilting between the two economies [Assuming China does not exist!]. IMO, this move on part of the company indicates only their incapacity to serve from India. In other words the article is just an ego-massage fluff piece. [Language fixes]

antidoh 14y ago
That, and maybe combined with outsourcing companies being mostly Indian because of the last decade, and really good at sourcing.
- monsterix 14y ago
  Yeah, it takes away the pain of finding alternate services and redo the contracts (read lazy managers at OEMs).
mseebach 14y ago
What you're describing are the exact same mechanisms that led US companies to outsource to India, but working in reverse.
- monsterix 14y ago
  No. Cost of hiring in America was the only reason why outsourcing took shape. India was the largest population which had advantage of basic English education; and thus it was in a good position to serve such an emerging market at low cost. Only now people have realized that English is different from Hinglish, Chinglish, Finglish, Singlish and cost-wise it is okay (economical and easier) to hire "barely educated" within the States than to train someone in Asia who would jerk the consumer experience quite often. I think both situations are completely different.

DanBC 14y ago

> Capuana, a manager for Aegis in New York, motivates this U.S. office with dress-down days Can anyone explain to me why a call centre worker needs to be dressed 'up' most days?

tathagata 14y ago
Some dresses can be distracting.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
freehunter 14y ago
When I worked tech support, I asked this same question of my management. The answer was professionalism. The same reason why most interviewing experts or interviewing articles will tell you to put on a tie for a phone interview: the way you dress influences the way you comport yourself. Doing professional tech support requires a professional behavior that a t-shirt and jeans won't bring about. This might be different if you're doing tech support for a valley start-up.
- PakG1 14y ago
  I'd be interested in studies on this because I've heard the same thing over and over again, but I don't believe it.
  - AndrewDucker 14y ago
    I don't believe it either. I've never seen any evidence that forcing people to wear a tie has a long-term effect on their behaviour.
    - potatolicious 14y ago
      I don't believe it's just about how your comport yourself to clients, but also to establish a hierarchy and pecking order within the organization itself. The employer may feel that the caliber of people they are hiring requires a very strict, by-the-books mode of operation, and forcing uniforms of people goes a long way towards showing who's in charge, and enforcing discipline.

auser678 14y ago

Yes, this is true.I know a lot of companies that are hiring more in the US and opening offices. This trend is going to continue. USA has some exceptional people and skillsets, and so do Indians. It will be a win win situation.

slurgfest 14y ago
This is what the term "negative externalities" was invented to cover. It is a win-win situation for those who successfully outsource - getting good work at lower cost. It is a win-win situation for those who get decent work. However, it is not a win-win situation for those who cannot get a job or who take a big pay cut or worse conditions because so much of the work in their sector has been outsourced. Perhaps you could say it is a win-win-lose situation.
- tatsuke95 14y ago
  Like you describe, out-sourcing generally provides a net-benefit to society by providing cheaper goods here and jobs in India. But it does not necessary produce a net-benefit to the US, since the trade off is cheaper goods but fewer American jobs. As a global citizen, I'm not concerned about the latter.
  - v0cab 14y ago
    Problem is, other countries aren't necessarily as open as we are to outsourcing and foreign labour. For instance, Western universities have many Asian professors, especially in Math, Science, and Engineering. But South Korean universities very rarely employ foreign professors, at least not full professors. This goes for many jobs in South Korea -- they simply don't want foreigners to do it, because foreigners aren't Korean. The exception is teaching English Conversation, because the Korean teachers very obviously can't do it well enough themselves. The government is trying to limit South Korea's reliance on foreign ESL teachers though. This goes for outsourcing too -- the UK government is happy to consider having foreign companies build nuclear power plants or railway lines in the UK, but the South Korean government would rather have everything in South Korea done by South Korean companies, even setting up a company to do it if necessary. When Westerners open their labour markets to foreigners and foreign companies, what can they do if the foreigners do not reciprocate?

ionforce 14y ago

"Near-sourcing" aka hiring? It's silly that we have to resort to jargon.

forgotAgain 14y ago

The article is 15 months old. This particular trend seems to have lasted for a very short period of time.

smountcastle 14y ago

I wonder how much profit there is to create loops? Company outsources to India which outsources to the US which outsources back to India which outsources back to the US, etc. I guess they make it work by finding cheap labor in the US (compared to training Indians).

pavel_lishin 14y ago

> hustle the phones Buzzword bingo.

suhastech 14y ago

I think with the advent of the internet, the disparity in the world economy is being normalised. In India, just 6-7 years back, $200/month was a good salary where one could lead a a happy life. Nowayadays, $1000/mo is fairly manageable (still very low compared to world standards). Inflation is up, living standards is improving, costs have risen and so are the income expectations. So, this might not be surprising. Just my thoughts.

vexxt 14y ago

H1-B visa abuse must be stopped.

mycodebreaks 14y ago
Agreed, no abuse should be tolerated. However, it's impossible to get h1b visas for call center workers.
- vexxt 14y ago
  You sure? You can get H-1B for people with no work lined up! Those damn desi firms.
  - mycodebreaks 14y ago
    You must report abuse then. Be a vigilant citizen.
auser678 14y ago
I would change the statement to 'The US Visa laws are broken'. Empirically H1-B demand is tied to the demand for highly skilled people. There have been years when it was allotted via lottery and there were years when the quota was not filled up. The companies using H1 already pay a high penalty in terms of the very high fees, which is non refundable even if the visa is rejected. It is a source of revenue to the US govt

therandomguy 14y ago

How is a company hiring in a different country 'outsourcing'? It would be outsourcing if Aegis is giving work to another company in US.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

y4m4 14y ago

The Article is from 2011 what a joke!