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Pope John Paul II was also extremely popular across the world.
by jjude 1y ago
Pope John Paul II was also extremely popular across the world.
- carlos-menezes 1y agoHe was, but John Paul II was traditionally conservative. I think Francis resonated with more people–Christian or not–because he emphasized compassion, humility, and social justice. He spoke more openly about issues like poverty, climate change, and inclusion–his encyclical LAUDATO SI’ is a great read–, and he often used language and gestures that the "common man" could relate to. Perhaps the way he dressed so simply–with the plain white cassock–also emphasized his overall approach: less focus on grandeur, more on service.
- bootsmann 1y agoDidn’t JPII rebuild the curia so that progressive popes like Francis could get closer to the keys of power?
- bonzini 1y agoYes and no. He was at the same time very open to being "part of the world" beyond the church, but also very conservative in ethics. In the end the former prevailed also in terms of progressiveness, but it wasn't a given.
- emmelaich 1y agoI think it's interesting that PJII was very popular with Catholics and possibly less so with non-Christian. Despite or because being more conservative? He was also a very good man and humble.
- andrepd 1y agoHe also covered up sexual abuses, game power to the Opus Dei, and aggressively pushed the disgusting mandate against condoms in the middle of the AIDS pandemic. Yeah, not a fan.
- dfxm12 1y agoJPII was a long running Pope. I would guess most people wouldn't know how conservative or not he was, or even what means in the context of the Catholic Church. He was the first Pope many of us knew, and the Pope who was with many of us the longest. He is probably most well known for the pope mobile.
- yusina 1y ago[flagged]
- neves 1y agoHe actively visited other countries and celebrated massive masses. I believe he was the first Pope to travel around the world bringing his faith. He also efficiently used the media.
- bonzini 1y agoJP was a great communicator. He understood what it meant for the church to talk to the people—first by traveling to many countries and in opposition to communist atheism, later with the organization of the Journee Mondiale de la Jeunesse. During the late 90s there was a pretty big Catholic spiritual movement towards boys and girls in their late teens or early 20s and it's crazy how big the JMJ was. His trick was hiding the conservative positions behind the mask of the beloved communicator.
- angra_mainyu 1y agoDon't know about that. I'm not a catholic and still view him in a much more favorable light than Francis. I think maybe it's just some progressives (and related groups) who liked Francis a lot for many of his positions.
- column 1y ago[flagged]
- scrollop 1y ago"telling Ukraine to "have the courage of the white flag"." Perhaps he should have told Russia to have the "courage" to stop murdering people.
- redeeman 1y agodo you think that would have even the slightest chance of changing anything?
- mgiannopoulos 1y agoSo never speak against brutal aggressors who commit war crimes? That seems to be antithetical to Christian values.
- redeeman 1y agowhere did I say that? I am merely saying, that what WAS said might have higher chance of helping
- raverbashing 1y agoNo but it puts the ball on their court
- pc86 1y agoThe ball was never in the Catholic Church's court in the first place, so no it does not.
- raverbashing 1y agoNeither is the Israel/Gaza conflict ball, doesn't preclude them from voicing their opinion on it
- detourdog 1y agoPope Francis was the only Pope that resonated with me. I was really shocked that at how human his words were. The moment he came on the scene he seemed genuine and honest. I hope they find more like him.
- alistairSH 1y agoThere was an interview on NPR this morning with a high-level Jesuit in the Americas (former leader of the order in Canada and USA, IIRC). He put it well... Pope Francis was always a pastor at heart. And he put the needs of the person in front of him ahead of strict doctrine. The interviewee likened it to triage in a field hospital - address the soul in front of you, worry about doctrine later (suture the wound, worry about cholesterol later).
- mantas 1y agoJPII was also elected in a very different world. And he played a big moral role in taking down iron curtain and getting Eastern Europe back Europe. Meanwhile Francis was quite the opposite. Especially as seen in the light of Russian aggression against Ukraine. For much of Eastern Europe that was like 180 turn. At least here both church goers and not seem to despise Francis while JPII has a warm place in the hearts both factions. Maybe it was different far away where Russia ain’t a hot topic.
- dml2135 1y agoCan you elaborate on what you mean here? You seem to be alluding to a stance that Francis had towards Russia that I am not familiar with.
- mantas 1y agoHe said Ukraine should surrender. To Russia which wants to exterminate Ukraine as a nation, culture and language. Feel free to google for more details. There were multiple occurrences when he doubled-down on his words after backlash.
- gosub100 1y agoAnd if he rallied for war he'd be criticized just the same: "leader of the Christians is such a hypocrite advocating for killing .."
- psunavy03 1y agoJust war theory was first written on in the West by Saint Augustine.
- dragonwriter 1y ago> He said Ukraine should surrender. Which would be bad, had he done so, but he didn't actually say that; the white flag comment was specifically and explicitly about being willing to directly negotiate with Russia, not about surrender. > There were multiple occurrences when he doubled-down on his words after backlash. He certainly called on multiple occasions for all parties to negotiate, but he was also consistent, both before Russia invaded, after the invasion and before the "white flag" comment, immediately after the "white flag" comment, and since that the invasion by Russia is (or "would be" before it occurred) unjustifiable, immoral, an act of aggression, and that Russia has the primary obligation to stop it.
- svieira 1y agoHe also spoke incredibly directly about abortion - "hiring a hitman" cuts right to the heart of the issue.
- lotsofpulp 1y ago[flagged]
- bigstrat2003 1y ago[flagged]
- lupusreal 1y agoI sincerely hope that at some point we can develop artificial wombs and use them to render this whole debate moot. Instead of abortion we can take the fetus out, put it into an artificial womb then let it be raised as an orphan or whatever. It should make both sides happy, IF they are both being honest about their motives.
- lotsofpulp 1y ago[flagged]
- lupusreal 1y agoBoth sides present the most agreeable arguments for their position, while publicly omitting other motives, while simultaneously highlighting the least agreeable motives of their opponents and omitting or flat out denying their more agreeable motives. I don't mind being candid (not least because I am not an important person and this is not an important discussion, the stakes are low so there is no pressing need to lie), so I'll say one of the quiet parts out loud for the side I mainly sit on: I think there is plausible social benifit to aborting pregnancies caused by rapists. Not only because rapists might carry genes for aggression, but also because rape circumvents the valuable social/physical fitness selection which women normally perform when choosing who to have babies with. Pro-choice advocates will almost never admit to believing anything like this, because it essentially validates the criticism antiabortion advocates have, that their opponents are eugenicists. To be clear, many pro-choice advocates aren't, and I don't think this particular argument would make or break the debate (it doesn't for me), but it is a potential source of contention pro-choice people might have with my artificial womb proposal.
- Slava_Propanei 1y ago[dead]
- StefanBatory 1y agoIn Poland, he was a figure bigger than life.
- kitd 1y agoPart of that though was that he was Polish, at a time when Poland and other Eastern European countries were Communist dictatorships. He represented in part a kind of "insurgency" against them.
- ahazred8ta 1y agoThe first non-Italian pope since the 1500s. For comparison, note the 1968 movie The Shoes of the Fisherman, in which a priest from Russia unexpectedly becomes pope and provokes great political change. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shoes_of_the_Fisherman_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shoes_of_the_Fisherman_(fi...
- salviati 1y agoHis global appeal was real, but his decision to give Opus Dei and similar conservative Catholic networks special status under the Vatican had serious consequences. Elevating Escrivá to sainthood and creating a personal prelature for Opus Dei handed them unmatched moral authority—authority they used to push back on women’s autonomy, justify discrimination against LGBTQ+ people, and quietly influence politics from Spain to Latin America. Popularity doesn’t erase the impact of empowering hard‑right movements that have harmed lives across the globe.
- andrepd 1y agoEven in Europe Opus Dei has immense influence in certain circles. I've seen first-hand the nefarious effects of that.
- froidpink 1y agocan you elaborate?
- dyauspitr 1y agoThe church is never going to be pro feminism or pro LGBTQ. I don’t think many, many people find that to be a dealbreaker especially in many developing nations where the entirety of the medical and schooling framework is solely provided by the church and cultural mores already line up with those perspectives.
- inemesitaffia 1y agoIn what way are women in the church less autonomous today than they were. Also the + stuff. The church has always influenced politics. See the fall of Communism as an example.
- andrepd 1y agoJP2 was liked by catholics (the reasons are interesting and complicated enough that would warrant a long discussion). But Francis was generally well-liked even by the irreligious.
- xeromal 1y agoI know a few muslims that liked him. I believe he just seemed like a "good guy" who wanted to unify the world
- angra_mainyu 1y agoYeah, Hamas gave a note on Francis for his support.
- numbers_guy 1y agoSince I see a lot of people commenting on this topic, I would like to offer a different perspective. Pope JPII was for my southern European social democratic Catholic family much more polarizing than Pope Francis. Pope Francis had politics that are mainstream and not at all controversial in my part of the world. Whereas JPII was perceived as the guy who was buddies with Reagan and Bush and a general supporter of American foreign policy. To what extent that was a fair assessment, I do not want to comment, since he did try to speak against the invasion of Iraq. None the less, it is not true that Pope Francis is more popular with non-Catholics (Reagan, Bush and most of the US were not Catholic and big supporters of JPII). It was also JPII that started the interfaith dialogue. It is also not true that Pope Francis is unpopular with Catholics. There are Catholics all across the globe with vastly different opinions on all kinds of issues.
- dmix 1y agoAs an outsider it sounds like both were in the current overton window of the power systems at the time.
- alistairSH 1y agoThat's a fair assessment. Notably, while Francis is sometimes considered liberal, there weren't (m)any notable changes to Church doctrine during his papacy. He did have a habit (a good one, IMO) of speaking more off-the-cuff in interviews. Whether that was contrived, or just a natural part of his personality, I do not know. But, it was those comments that usually led to the "he's a liberal!" comments. And both sides of the political spectrum said similar things... "He's a liberal (like us)!" or "He's a liberal (unlike us)!" - so he was probably doing something right.
- angra_mainyu 1y agoExactly, and as a pope far more respectable. Even non-catholics like me could sympathize with the dismay of so many catholics at many of the positions/blunders of Francis.