5 ms·

I think the EU should flex their regulatory muscle and forbid algorithmic feeds on by default unless the networks break european society as the US is broken.

by xyzal 2y ago

LtWorf 2y ago
They should just say that algorithm is editorialised and needs to be subject to the same regulations as newspapers (fined for fake news, editor can lose his journalist status).
- somenameforme 2y ago
  Newspapers can publish all the fake news they want. There's no special carve out for e.g. tabloids. The only constraint they have is they aren't protected by section 230, so they can be sued for things like defamation or libel.
  - pooper 2y ago
    The big one to me is paid content should be clearly labeled as paid content and should be skippable programmatically and in bulk. Things like product placement.
- harvey9 2y ago
  Is journalist a formal status? It's not like the owners of Linkedin or Facebook actually care if they can't get a press pass anyway.
  - LtWorf 1y ago
    In some EU countries yes it is. You need recognised journalists that can be disbarred to report news. Exceptions exist for specialised publications, so science journals don't need journalists.
milesrout 2y ago
The result of a purely chronological feed is that you have to scroll through 10 posts from the same person and never see anything from people that post good content rarely. Plenty of people like and enjoy "algorithmic feeds". I can enjoy occasionally scrolling through a feed. Banning it is like banning alcohol because there are alcoholics in society. If you can't handle it, switch it off.
- hansworst 2y ago
  Obviously there’s a balance to be struck here. We could legalise fentanyl and tell people to just not use it, but that probably wouldn’t have a very positive impact on society. At the very least we should acknowledge the negative externalities. Just leaving it up to the market to figure out (especially if we allow the current tech monopolies to exist) will result in serious societal impact.
- lukan 2y ago
  "The result of a purely chronological feed is that you have to scroll through 10 posts from the same person and never see anything from people that post good content rarely." But who made the demand, to have everything shown from everyone? Imagine a social network, where you make your own rules for your feed. That special person who posts rarely, but good will have special visibility. And from that bored family member that basically spams, you will see the message "X has posted 50 pictures and text today" and with a click you can go there.
- delusional 2y ago
  Plenty of people like and enjoy "algorithmic feeds". Plenty of people like heroin too. Liking something doesn't make it good.
- intended 2y ago
  Alcohol consumption is gated behind age laws. There are society level effects based on the consumption of several goods and services. Gambling, alcohol, drugs, for example. The individuals story, in aggregate, mm impacts, over and over, has effects that we must address when arguing for the optimal friction for that good.
madaxe_again 2y ago
I don’t know how much of a difference it would make, as then we just become the algorithm. I quit Facebook over a decade ago, because others used it to go “look at my shiny car/wife/house”, and I would use it to lose friends and alienate people. These online environments do not foster any kind of human connection.
- blitzar 2y ago
  madaxe_again checked in at the First Class lounge.
- ay 2y ago
  Blue sky allows you to have many different kinds of feeds and I can say the difference in adrenaline level and mood is palpable depending on the feed I use. News items - frustration at the state the world is in. Urban bicycle feed: annoyance at the atrocities of the inept drivers. Feed with cycle side trip pictures: fun. Rust projects, Electronics: the curiosity of learning. Also: Bluesky has an absolutely amazing feature which is you can subscribe to someone else’s block lists. That changes the experience quite a lot, to the better.
  - Zambyte 2y ago
    Bluesky has felt like the healthiest experience I have ever had with social media. I don't really use any algorithmic feeds (though I have been toying with building my own), just my following feed.
    - ay 1y ago
      I find the algorithmic topical feeds nicely solve the problem of discovery for me. There’s a lot of people who are experts in their fields, totally different to mine (e.g. astronomy, physics, photography etc) which makes it interesting for me.
      - Zambyte 1y ago
        Yeah, I'm sure they're useful! I have just found myself in a neat community, and I have > 700 followers and followers (mostly mutual), so I haven't really felt a need for discovery. I usually just find people through replies to people I know already at this point.
itake 2y ago
EU companies benefit from the feeds, because that is where many ad slots are.
vekker 2y ago
I'm sure that would work out fine. Just like the GDPR regulation made the web so much better & more private, and the promise of the AI act is boosting innovation in Europe...
- earnestinger 2y ago
  You probably mean the visible cooky thing. But behind the scenes companies did start to think about customer data gathering, retention and deletion in terms of maximal fine of 4% of turnover.
- sureglymop 2y ago
  The GDPR regulation is great and arguably does make the web more private and better. At the very least, it's better than having no regulations. I've even been able to successfully use it to remove something private about me from the internet. I don't think I would have even gotten a response had there been no legal precedent. You can always argue about how some regulations are badly implemented or incomplete but I believe it would be very misguided to believe that no regulations are instead the better alternative.
- intended 2y ago
  Yes, the Americas are a hot bed for innovation. Enshittification is also an innovation.
jorvi 2y ago
That wouldn't work. 95% of people ordinarily do usually stick with defaults, but not when chasing their (dopamine) addiction. Imagine there's a toggle you can flip in the Settings of Instagram that was labeled "free oxy", and every morning and evening Meta would FedEx an oxy pill into your mailbox. Everyone would tell eachother about it, and few would be able to resist the temptation.
indymike 2y ago
I'm not sure this model works as it just forbids lists of any kind. Algorithmic is an extremely poor choice of words as any method of selecting posts/messages for a list is an algorithm.

I think the EU should flex their regulatory muscle and forbid algorithmic feeds on by default unless the networks break european society as the US is broken.

by xyzal 2y ago

I think the EU should flex their regulatory muscle and forbid algorithmic feeds on by default unless the networks break european society as the US is broken.

LtWorf 2y ago

They should just say that algorithm is editorialised and needs to be subject to the same regulations as newspapers (fined for fake news, editor can lose his journalist status).

somenameforme 2y ago
Newspapers can publish all the fake news they want. There's no special carve out for e.g. tabloids. The only constraint they have is they aren't protected by section 230, so they can be sued for things like defamation or libel.
- pooper 2y ago
  The big one to me is paid content should be clearly labeled as paid content and should be skippable programmatically and in bulk. Things like product placement.
harvey9 2y ago
Is journalist a formal status? It's not like the owners of Linkedin or Facebook actually care if they can't get a press pass anyway.
- LtWorf 1y ago
  In some EU countries yes it is. You need recognised journalists that can be disbarred to report news. Exceptions exist for specialised publications, so science journals don't need journalists.

milesrout 2y ago

The result of a purely chronological feed is that you have to scroll through 10 posts from the same person and never see anything from people that post good content rarely. Plenty of people like and enjoy "algorithmic feeds". I can enjoy occasionally scrolling through a feed. Banning it is like banning alcohol because there are alcoholics in society. If you can't handle it, switch it off.

hansworst 2y ago
Obviously there’s a balance to be struck here. We could legalise fentanyl and tell people to just not use it, but that probably wouldn’t have a very positive impact on society. At the very least we should acknowledge the negative externalities. Just leaving it up to the market to figure out (especially if we allow the current tech monopolies to exist) will result in serious societal impact.
lukan 2y ago
"The result of a purely chronological feed is that you have to scroll through 10 posts from the same person and never see anything from people that post good content rarely." But who made the demand, to have everything shown from everyone? Imagine a social network, where you make your own rules for your feed. That special person who posts rarely, but good will have special visibility. And from that bored family member that basically spams, you will see the message "X has posted 50 pictures and text today" and with a click you can go there.
delusional 2y ago
Plenty of people like and enjoy "algorithmic feeds". Plenty of people like heroin too. Liking something doesn't make it good.
intended 2y ago
Alcohol consumption is gated behind age laws. There are society level effects based on the consumption of several goods and services. Gambling, alcohol, drugs, for example. The individuals story, in aggregate, mm impacts, over and over, has effects that we must address when arguing for the optimal friction for that good.

madaxe_again 2y ago

I don’t know how much of a difference it would make, as then we just become the algorithm. I quit Facebook over a decade ago, because others used it to go “look at my shiny car/wife/house”, and I would use it to lose friends and alienate people. These online environments do not foster any kind of human connection.

blitzar 2y ago
madaxe_again checked in at the First Class lounge.
ay 2y ago
Blue sky allows you to have many different kinds of feeds and I can say the difference in adrenaline level and mood is palpable depending on the feed I use. News items - frustration at the state the world is in. Urban bicycle feed: annoyance at the atrocities of the inept drivers. Feed with cycle side trip pictures: fun. Rust projects, Electronics: the curiosity of learning. Also: Bluesky has an absolutely amazing feature which is you can subscribe to someone else’s block lists. That changes the experience quite a lot, to the better.
- Zambyte 2y ago
  Bluesky has felt like the healthiest experience I have ever had with social media. I don't really use any algorithmic feeds (though I have been toying with building my own), just my following feed.
  - ay 1y ago
    I find the algorithmic topical feeds nicely solve the problem of discovery for me. There’s a lot of people who are experts in their fields, totally different to mine (e.g. astronomy, physics, photography etc) which makes it interesting for me.
    - Zambyte 1y ago
      Yeah, I'm sure they're useful! I have just found myself in a neat community, and I have > 700 followers and followers (mostly mutual), so I haven't really felt a need for discovery. I usually just find people through replies to people I know already at this point.

itake 2y ago

EU companies benefit from the feeds, because that is where many ad slots are.

vekker 2y ago

I'm sure that would work out fine. Just like the GDPR regulation made the web so much better & more private, and the promise of the AI act is boosting innovation in Europe...

earnestinger 2y ago
You probably mean the visible cooky thing. But behind the scenes companies did start to think about customer data gathering, retention and deletion in terms of maximal fine of 4% of turnover.
sureglymop 2y ago
The GDPR regulation is great and arguably does make the web more private and better. At the very least, it's better than having no regulations. I've even been able to successfully use it to remove something private about me from the internet. I don't think I would have even gotten a response had there been no legal precedent. You can always argue about how some regulations are badly implemented or incomplete but I believe it would be very misguided to believe that no regulations are instead the better alternative.
intended 2y ago
Yes, the Americas are a hot bed for innovation. Enshittification is also an innovation.

jorvi 2y ago

That wouldn't work. 95% of people ordinarily do usually stick with defaults, but not when chasing their (dopamine) addiction. Imagine there's a toggle you can flip in the Settings of Instagram that was labeled "free oxy", and every morning and evening Meta would FedEx an oxy pill into your mailbox. Everyone would tell eachother about it, and few would be able to resist the temptation.

indymike 2y ago

I'm not sure this model works as it just forbids lists of any kind. Algorithmic is an extremely poor choice of words as any method of selecting posts/messages for a list is an algorithm.