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South America was pretty advanced. The oldest evidence we have of widespread metallurgy comes from the tip of South America around approximately 5000 BC. Which

by culi 2y ago

South America was pretty advanced. The oldest evidence we have of widespread metallurgy comes from the tip of South America around approximately 5000 BC. Which predates metallurgy in Eurasia by thousands of years. Copper smelting was particularly important https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgy_in_pre-Columbian_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgy_in_pre-Columbian_Am... On the ecological side, some anthropologists argued that humans actually played a major role in transitioning Amazonia from mostly grasslands to the rainforest it is today around 10,000 years ago. The distribution of many plant species is inexplicable without looking at human settlement patterns. So much so that other anthropologists have called the Amazon a "manufactured landscape". https://sci-hub.ru/https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-0-387-74907-5_11 https://sci-hub.ru/https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007...

luqtas 2y ago
you can also say the Saharan desert played a major role on turning what Amazon is... now, wow, calling it a grassland before humans 10,000 years ago is to smoke too much pot before reading/making papers. 5,000,000 AD then yes, maybe... /s but Terra Preta and other indigenous interferences is not even 10% of Amazon territory. various other animals are responsible for spreading diversity be it by shitting seed or just moking stuff around to make nests or impress some partner. the rainforest are also there because mountains changing courses of rivers. [0] "Geology and geodiversity of the Amazon: Three billion years of history" https://www.theamazonwewant.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Chapter-1-Bound-May-9.pdf https://www.theamazonwewant.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/C... [1] the grassland hypothesis (somewhere in the text) and other curiosities about its biodiversity https://www.science.org/content/article/feature-how-amazon-became-crucible-life https://www.science.org/content/article/feature-how-amazon-b...
- culi 2y ago
  This is common knowledge. Even the Wikipedia page states: > There is evidence that there have been significant changes in the Amazon rainforest vegetation over the last 21,000 years through the last glacial maximum (LGM) and subsequent deglaciation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_rainforest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_rainforest Also, there's this: https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/10-800-years-ago-early-humans-planted-forest-islands-in-amazonias-grasslands https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/10-800-years-a...
  - luqtas 2y ago
    the Wiki citation doesn't even have a source, nor is calling that indigenous people made it your last link is about Llanos de Moxos, which isn't in Amazon. you don't seen to understand even basic geography... even if Llanos was 100% man-made (and isn't) and it was part of the Amazon (and not a region that borders it) it would be the equivalent of 2.6% of the whole Amazon area. concluding such a thing because 3% of an area that benefited (soil quality wise) from billions of years of geologic events and was partly modified by humans is ignorant but again, Llanos isn't even Amazon it was common knowledge among middle age that Earth was flat. doesn't seem an argument to me
    - Jensson 2y ago
      There were elephants there that humans hunted to extinction, elephants typically keep forests down and create grasslands. So it seems likely it happened, and that humans was the cause (by killing the elephants). Edit: So it is likely that the change happened and had nothing to do with the soil change.
      - zeristor 2y ago
        Depends, there’s elephants in the Congo forest, they’re just not too easy to see. The trees grow faster than the elephants can wreck them. But in areas with less rain fall elephants keep the grasslands more open. As did Mammoths in the northern forests.
    - culi 2y ago
      I never said Amazonian grasslands was manmade. Reread your own comment to understand the context The Wikipedia source was to back up the claim that Amazonia was largely grasslands about 10-20k years ago. That is what is common knowledge.
    - southernplaces7 2y ago
      >it was common knowledge among middle age that Earth was flat. doesn't seem an argument to me And you don't seem to know basic history, casting doubt on other things you say. Nobody serious in the middle ages (or since much further back than that either) thought seriously that the Earth was flat.
lurk2 2y ago
> The oldest evidence we have of widespread metallurgy comes from the tip of South America around approximately 5000 BC. Which predates metallurgy in Eurasia by thousands of years. There are archaeological finds in Europe dating smelting in the region back as early as 5500 BC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pločnik_(archaeological_site) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pločnik_(archaeological_site)
- culi 2y ago
  Yes but I said "widespread" metallurgy. There are evidence of metallurgy that is even older than 5000 BC in South America but it's not widespread enough for me to point it out. We even have evidence of copper processing 10,000BC in the Near East but I also didn't think that was worth pointing out https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/09/170901113607.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/09/170901113607.h...

by culi 2y ago

luqtas 2y ago

you can also say the Saharan desert played a major role on turning what Amazon is... now, wow, calling it a grassland before humans 10,000 years ago is to smoke too much pot before reading/making papers. 5,000,000 AD then yes, maybe... /s but Terra Preta and other indigenous interferences is not even 10% of Amazon territory. various other animals are responsible for spreading diversity be it by shitting seed or just moking stuff around to make nests or impress some partner. the rainforest are also there because mountains changing courses of rivers. [0] "Geology and geodiversity of the Amazon: Three billion years of history" https://www.theamazonwewant.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Chapter-1-Bound-May-9.pdf https://www.theamazonwewant.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/C... [1] the grassland hypothesis (somewhere in the text) and other curiosities about its biodiversity https://www.science.org/content/article/feature-how-amazon-became-crucible-life https://www.science.org/content/article/feature-how-amazon-b...

culi 2y ago
This is common knowledge. Even the Wikipedia page states: > There is evidence that there have been significant changes in the Amazon rainforest vegetation over the last 21,000 years through the last glacial maximum (LGM) and subsequent deglaciation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_rainforest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_rainforest Also, there's this: https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/10-800-years-ago-early-humans-planted-forest-islands-in-amazonias-grasslands https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/10-800-years-a...
- luqtas 2y ago
  the Wiki citation doesn't even have a source, nor is calling that indigenous people made it your last link is about Llanos de Moxos, which isn't in Amazon. you don't seen to understand even basic geography... even if Llanos was 100% man-made (and isn't) and it was part of the Amazon (and not a region that borders it) it would be the equivalent of 2.6% of the whole Amazon area. concluding such a thing because 3% of an area that benefited (soil quality wise) from billions of years of geologic events and was partly modified by humans is ignorant but again, Llanos isn't even Amazon it was common knowledge among middle age that Earth was flat. doesn't seem an argument to me
  - Jensson 2y ago
    There were elephants there that humans hunted to extinction, elephants typically keep forests down and create grasslands. So it seems likely it happened, and that humans was the cause (by killing the elephants). Edit: So it is likely that the change happened and had nothing to do with the soil change.
    - zeristor 2y ago
      Depends, there’s elephants in the Congo forest, they’re just not too easy to see. The trees grow faster than the elephants can wreck them. But in areas with less rain fall elephants keep the grasslands more open. As did Mammoths in the northern forests.
  - culi 2y ago
    I never said Amazonian grasslands was manmade. Reread your own comment to understand the context The Wikipedia source was to back up the claim that Amazonia was largely grasslands about 10-20k years ago. That is what is common knowledge.
  - southernplaces7 2y ago
    >it was common knowledge among middle age that Earth was flat. doesn't seem an argument to me And you don't seem to know basic history, casting doubt on other things you say. Nobody serious in the middle ages (or since much further back than that either) thought seriously that the Earth was flat.

lurk2 2y ago

> The oldest evidence we have of widespread metallurgy comes from the tip of South America around approximately 5000 BC. Which predates metallurgy in Eurasia by thousands of years. There are archaeological finds in Europe dating smelting in the region back as early as 5500 BC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pločnik_(archaeological_site) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pločnik_(archaeological_site)

culi 2y ago
Yes but I said "widespread" metallurgy. There are evidence of metallurgy that is even older than 5000 BC in South America but it's not widespread enough for me to point it out. We even have evidence of copper processing 10,000BC in the Near East but I also didn't think that was worth pointing out https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/09/170901113607.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/09/170901113607.h...