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I started my gardening adventure with vegetables in pots. It was perfect, plants gave amazing yield, but required too detailed care and attention every day (or

by bgnn 1y ago

I started my gardening adventure with vegetables in pots. It was perfect, plants gave amazing yield, but required too detailed care and attention every day (or sometimes 2-3 times a day in a hot dry summer day). When I have moved to planting in soil I was shocked how worse the plants are doing. Same tomatoes giving 10-15 kg per plant yield in pots were under 3kg in soil. They got more disease issues, more pests (slugs and snails!). After talking to fellow natural hobby farmers I realized the soil quality was garbage (lack of earth worms and insects), and there were severe drainage and water holding issues: weirdly the soil didn't hold water but it drained way too slow too. So, ehen it rained it was swamped for days but when it got dry none of that water stayed at the top 1 meters of the soil. I'm lucky to find amazing help from local natural farmers, so I got natural green compost (no animal products/byproducts). I have been introduced to no-dig farming too. So first year I started by applying 20cm thick compost on top soil, after putting a layer of old paper boxes against weeds. Then planted my seedlings on these, with worm poop and for some phosphate loving plants bat guano as fertilizers around the plants, topping of with hemp mulch and cacao shell mulch as topping. When this soil has sunken enough, topped off with 2-3 cm compost and mulched again. I have sprinkled insect friendly flowers to attract insects too. This was an amazing succes with not only plants flourishing, fighting diseases much better and resulting in an amazing yield. I didn't need to water as often as before (4x less frequent than before in the soil, 8x less frequent than in the pot). After year 3 I stopped all fertilization and introduced cover crops that could be used as mulch and fertilizer at the same time. This process though is not linear. I still have plants which are not successful at all. I can grow juicy tasty watermelons in a northern European country but no parsnips or carrots or cauliflowers yet. This is what I love though, I'm interacting with a living microbiome rather than executing lab experiments. Failures are keeping it interesting and improving learning.

MortyWaves 1y ago
That was a great read. This is what I hope to achieve too. I know what you mean about some crops that won’t grow at all, for me, it’s carrots. They are never more than a couple of centimetres long. Deeply frustrating. I’ve tried lots, including making the soil loose, making it compact, adding sand, etc. Also Aloe Vera, absolutely the most frustrating house plants I’ve ever had.
- thatcat 1y ago
  You're probably over watering the aloe. Try growing carrots using a straw bale with soil added to a v cut in the center as a planter.
  - hinkley 1y ago
    Aloe does better in terra cotta pots and cactus mix. Even if you overwater it it won’t stay wet long.
- johnisgood 1y ago
  Why do you find Aloe Vera frustrating? I mean, it grows quickly and requires very little maintenance. I suppose that could be seen as "frustrating" in the sense that it needs to be divided or thinned out regularly.
  - hinkley 1y ago
    Typical problem with aloe is overwatering. And modern potting soil often is loaded with sphagnum, which stays wet too long, and then when it dries it becomes hydrophobic so watering the plant doesn’t wet the entire soil.
    - johnisgood 1y ago
      I agree. I do not water them and they grow crazy!
      - hinkley 1y ago
        Only water when the feeling of guilt at not watering them is overwhelming.
        johnisgood 1y ago
        Pretty much. :)
GenerWork 1y ago
When you say that you put a layer of old paper boxes against weeds, does that mean you put the broken down boxes first, and the put the compost on the top? If so, were the seedlings able to sink their roots through the paper boxes and go deeper into the ground? Also, what cover crops did you introduce?
- bgnn 1y ago
  I just put them dry, not broken, and overlapping between the boxes such that they cover the surface fully. And yes, the roots can go down, but weeds cannot go past that easily. The theory is yhe upwards growth is weak but downwards growth of the roots are much stronger and they can puncture a wet paper box. Cover crops: clover, buckwheat and winter rye. Cut before seeding and lay them flat over the surface.
  - vanattab 1y ago
    I could see this being the reason your carrots didn't grow well though. If the carrots tap root struggles a bit through the cardboard it could mess up devlopment. I think this is why they say not to transplant carrots. The tap root bottoms out quickly and struggles to recover.
    - bgnn 1y ago
      Oh carrots were in a deep compost bed (40cm) first. They only grew like 2cm long roots, nowhere near the box.
  - smogcutter 1y ago
    Just to clear up what sounds like a simple misunderstanding, because you mentioned being in Europe: in the US (can’t speak for other English speaking countries) to “break down” box is to flatten it, not break it like to destroy or tear apart. As in “help me break down these boxes for recycling”. Forgive me if you got that, it just sounded like you were talking past each other.
    - 1y ago
naet 1y ago
I had the opposite experience. I had rented a house that had an empty patch of dirt and asked the landlord if we could plant some vegetables there (which I didn't have a lot of experience in). My older neighbor saw me and said that we had great soil in our neighborhood but I didn't really think about it. The vegetables grew amazingly well, we had way too many tomatoes and tons of broccoli that kept growing back and more. I barely took any care with it after planting, other than very sporadic watering and harvesting. The next year we moved from that house to a new place, where we couldn't plant directly in the ground but the landlord was happy for us to use pots and planters. I eagerly planted my broccoli again thinking we'd have the same endless supply... but this time it barely produced anything and looked nothing like the last year. I bought some kind of soil bags from the gardening store after asking an employee which would be good for vegetable pots and planters. Something about the pots or the soil or otherwise made a gigantic difference even though we had moved probably less than a mile distance wise. I'm a very amateur gardener so I may have made some other mistakes, but I think I treated the plants very similarly both years.
- GoToRO 1y ago
  From what I know, first year after a lomg pause is always amazing. Farmers are paid to let the soil rest 1 year.
- bgnn 1y ago
  This makes sense as pots require very high precision of soil composition and water management. You need good drainage but a water reservoir under the pots with some kind of wick to keep it watering from the bottom. Also the size of the pot you need is huge compared to your intuition. A single tomato plant requires more than 100L of soil, 30% of which should be perlite, you need some pebbles for better drainage mixed in, and more than 50% should be compost. This often isn't enough for a tomato, so you need to add slow release fertilizers at different levels of soil. In a warm day (> 30C) you need to give 5L of water in the morning and in the evening. The water should stay in the pot but not flood it. Ah, also, they cannot handle cold as good as in soil either. So the pots should be moved indoors when it's too cold, and require shielding from a lot of wind. If you prepare the pot, soil etc properly, you can get good results. It's very repeatable as it's a very precise recipe. If you put potting soil in a pot randomly it won't work at all.
goeiedaggoeie 1y ago
We use a Lomi to convert our organic waste into compost I can add to my worm farm and then from the worm farm, mix with outdoor soil and grow in that. A automated a flood and drain system with our fish and cultivate nitrogen fixing bacteria with that, and water the plants with this water every couple of days. Using these two approaches I have not had to buy any nutrients in years and our soil is doing well. https://lomi.com/?srsltid=AfmBOor2uvg1DJ2J1E6rXh-8L3iAqzeSD0J5xXmwCMALgasTIbOE4xKj https://lomi.com/?srsltid=AfmBOor2uvg1DJ2J1E6rXh-8L3iAqzeSD0...
- lm28469 1y ago
  Why get an electric powered gadget made of plastic and proprietary soft/hardware that will 100% for sure end in a dump in less than 20 years when all you need is a good ol compost bin? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bXZG-kzlhPY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bXZG-kzlhPY
  - MobiusHorizons 1y ago
    I was originally pretty skeptical of the Lomi as well after seeing this very same video. But my friend got us one and we have been using it for a while now. Sure, it has the same parts as a breadmaker, and it's mostly just drying out and cutting down the organic material into more useful sizes, exactly like he says, but when you put in the enzymes and have it run its dirt cycle it does actually produce meaningfully good compost all with much lower footprint a garden composting setup. I'm not sure I'd pay to buy one new, but but it's not a scam.
    - 9dev 1y ago
      Just remember that any positive effect you might achieve by a lifetime of composting is grossly negated by the production, usage, and inevitable way to the landfill of this thing. Startups like these are part of the problem, not the solution.
      - geetee 1y ago
        That could be true, but maybe OP's goal isn't making a positive impact on the global scale.
anon84873628 1y ago
Interesting that you mentioned compost without animal products, then bat guano. Isn't guano harvesting fairly unsustainable and damaging to bat colonies?
- bgnn 1y ago
  True. I wasn't really avoiding animal products but the idea was to not flood the soil with nitrogen. Bat guano is indeed bot great, which I stopped using after learning. Great thing about ot is thomoug high potassium and phosphate. This was necessary for my watermelons. I've read that pigeon guano is also great. I didn't do any research on its environmental impact though, as I don't need it at the moment.
conductr 1y ago
What you explain sounds similar to just having a high clay content. Water doesn’t soak in well. Not all earth is good soil to begin with is the lesson, you need to know what your starting with and amend. Unless you’re using potting mix in a pot, this is usually engineered to be excellent by professionals and explains the success
- bgnn 1y ago
  High clay can by itself be quite problematic, especially reclaimed soil from sea and river deltas (so called polders) here in the Netherlands. These lands are very dense clay to begin with, rich with nutrients but not great for root growth and holding water. Sand is added for the former, and groubd water level is managed to max 1m underground for the latter. Nowadays with long stretches of dry weather (> 2 weeks no rain) this is becoming a huge problem as traditionally the issue always was drainage, ie getting rid of the water as fast as possible. There's an interesting read about a polder in English here, especially the mechanical soil improvement section is worthwhile: https://www.canonnoordoostpolder.nl/en/land/cultivation https://www.canonnoordoostpolder.nl/en/land/cultivation

by bgnn 1y ago

MortyWaves 1y ago

That was a great read. This is what I hope to achieve too. I know what you mean about some crops that won’t grow at all, for me, it’s carrots. They are never more than a couple of centimetres long. Deeply frustrating. I’ve tried lots, including making the soil loose, making it compact, adding sand, etc. Also Aloe Vera, absolutely the most frustrating house plants I’ve ever had.

thatcat 1y ago
You're probably over watering the aloe. Try growing carrots using a straw bale with soil added to a v cut in the center as a planter.
- hinkley 1y ago
  Aloe does better in terra cotta pots and cactus mix. Even if you overwater it it won’t stay wet long.
johnisgood 1y ago
Why do you find Aloe Vera frustrating? I mean, it grows quickly and requires very little maintenance. I suppose that could be seen as "frustrating" in the sense that it needs to be divided or thinned out regularly.
- hinkley 1y ago
  Typical problem with aloe is overwatering. And modern potting soil often is loaded with sphagnum, which stays wet too long, and then when it dries it becomes hydrophobic so watering the plant doesn’t wet the entire soil.
  - johnisgood 1y ago
    I agree. I do not water them and they grow crazy!
    - hinkley 1y ago
      Only water when the feeling of guilt at not watering them is overwhelming.
      - johnisgood 1y ago
        Pretty much. :)

GenerWork 1y ago

When you say that you put a layer of old paper boxes against weeds, does that mean you put the broken down boxes first, and the put the compost on the top? If so, were the seedlings able to sink their roots through the paper boxes and go deeper into the ground? Also, what cover crops did you introduce?

bgnn 1y ago
I just put them dry, not broken, and overlapping between the boxes such that they cover the surface fully. And yes, the roots can go down, but weeds cannot go past that easily. The theory is yhe upwards growth is weak but downwards growth of the roots are much stronger and they can puncture a wet paper box. Cover crops: clover, buckwheat and winter rye. Cut before seeding and lay them flat over the surface.
- vanattab 1y ago
  I could see this being the reason your carrots didn't grow well though. If the carrots tap root struggles a bit through the cardboard it could mess up devlopment. I think this is why they say not to transplant carrots. The tap root bottoms out quickly and struggles to recover.
  - bgnn 1y ago
    Oh carrots were in a deep compost bed (40cm) first. They only grew like 2cm long roots, nowhere near the box.
- smogcutter 1y ago
  Just to clear up what sounds like a simple misunderstanding, because you mentioned being in Europe: in the US (can’t speak for other English speaking countries) to “break down” box is to flatten it, not break it like to destroy or tear apart. As in “help me break down these boxes for recycling”. Forgive me if you got that, it just sounded like you were talking past each other.
  - 1y ago

naet 1y ago

I had the opposite experience. I had rented a house that had an empty patch of dirt and asked the landlord if we could plant some vegetables there (which I didn't have a lot of experience in). My older neighbor saw me and said that we had great soil in our neighborhood but I didn't really think about it. The vegetables grew amazingly well, we had way too many tomatoes and tons of broccoli that kept growing back and more. I barely took any care with it after planting, other than very sporadic watering and harvesting. The next year we moved from that house to a new place, where we couldn't plant directly in the ground but the landlord was happy for us to use pots and planters. I eagerly planted my broccoli again thinking we'd have the same endless supply... but this time it barely produced anything and looked nothing like the last year. I bought some kind of soil bags from the gardening store after asking an employee which would be good for vegetable pots and planters. Something about the pots or the soil or otherwise made a gigantic difference even though we had moved probably less than a mile distance wise. I'm a very amateur gardener so I may have made some other mistakes, but I think I treated the plants very similarly both years.

GoToRO 1y ago
From what I know, first year after a lomg pause is always amazing. Farmers are paid to let the soil rest 1 year.
bgnn 1y ago
This makes sense as pots require very high precision of soil composition and water management. You need good drainage but a water reservoir under the pots with some kind of wick to keep it watering from the bottom. Also the size of the pot you need is huge compared to your intuition. A single tomato plant requires more than 100L of soil, 30% of which should be perlite, you need some pebbles for better drainage mixed in, and more than 50% should be compost. This often isn't enough for a tomato, so you need to add slow release fertilizers at different levels of soil. In a warm day (> 30C) you need to give 5L of water in the morning and in the evening. The water should stay in the pot but not flood it. Ah, also, they cannot handle cold as good as in soil either. So the pots should be moved indoors when it's too cold, and require shielding from a lot of wind. If you prepare the pot, soil etc properly, you can get good results. It's very repeatable as it's a very precise recipe. If you put potting soil in a pot randomly it won't work at all.

goeiedaggoeie 1y ago

We use a Lomi to convert our organic waste into compost I can add to my worm farm and then from the worm farm, mix with outdoor soil and grow in that. A automated a flood and drain system with our fish and cultivate nitrogen fixing bacteria with that, and water the plants with this water every couple of days. Using these two approaches I have not had to buy any nutrients in years and our soil is doing well. https://lomi.com/?srsltid=AfmBOor2uvg1DJ2J1E6rXh-8L3iAqzeSD0J5xXmwCMALgasTIbOE4xKj https://lomi.com/?srsltid=AfmBOor2uvg1DJ2J1E6rXh-8L3iAqzeSD0...

lm28469 1y ago
Why get an electric powered gadget made of plastic and proprietary soft/hardware that will 100% for sure end in a dump in less than 20 years when all you need is a good ol compost bin? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bXZG-kzlhPY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bXZG-kzlhPY
- MobiusHorizons 1y ago
  I was originally pretty skeptical of the Lomi as well after seeing this very same video. But my friend got us one and we have been using it for a while now. Sure, it has the same parts as a breadmaker, and it's mostly just drying out and cutting down the organic material into more useful sizes, exactly like he says, but when you put in the enzymes and have it run its dirt cycle it does actually produce meaningfully good compost all with much lower footprint a garden composting setup. I'm not sure I'd pay to buy one new, but but it's not a scam.
  - 9dev 1y ago
    Just remember that any positive effect you might achieve by a lifetime of composting is grossly negated by the production, usage, and inevitable way to the landfill of this thing. Startups like these are part of the problem, not the solution.
    - geetee 1y ago
      That could be true, but maybe OP's goal isn't making a positive impact on the global scale.

anon84873628 1y ago

Interesting that you mentioned compost without animal products, then bat guano. Isn't guano harvesting fairly unsustainable and damaging to bat colonies?

bgnn 1y ago
True. I wasn't really avoiding animal products but the idea was to not flood the soil with nitrogen. Bat guano is indeed bot great, which I stopped using after learning. Great thing about ot is thomoug high potassium and phosphate. This was necessary for my watermelons. I've read that pigeon guano is also great. I didn't do any research on its environmental impact though, as I don't need it at the moment.

conductr 1y ago

What you explain sounds similar to just having a high clay content. Water doesn’t soak in well. Not all earth is good soil to begin with is the lesson, you need to know what your starting with and amend. Unless you’re using potting mix in a pot, this is usually engineered to be excellent by professionals and explains the success

bgnn 1y ago
High clay can by itself be quite problematic, especially reclaimed soil from sea and river deltas (so called polders) here in the Netherlands. These lands are very dense clay to begin with, rich with nutrients but not great for root growth and holding water. Sand is added for the former, and groubd water level is managed to max 1m underground for the latter. Nowadays with long stretches of dry weather (> 2 weeks no rain) this is becoming a huge problem as traditionally the issue always was drainage, ie getting rid of the water as fast as possible. There's an interesting read about a polder in English here, especially the mechanical soil improvement section is worthwhile: https://www.canonnoordoostpolder.nl/en/land/cultivation https://www.canonnoordoostpolder.nl/en/land/cultivation