3 ms·

sure, we can make them grow well in a lab. but a natural system is so much simpler and elegant

westurner 2y ago
Plants absorb nitrogen and CO2 from the air and store it in their roots; plants fertilize soil. If you only grow plants with externally-sourced nutrients, that is neither sustainable nor permaculture. Though it may be more efficient to grow without soil; soil depletion isn't prevented by production processes that do not generate topsoil. JADAM is a system developed by a chemicals engineer given what is observed to work in JNF/KNF. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38527264 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38527264 Where do soil amendments come from, and what would deplete those stocks (with consideration for soil depletion)? (Also, there are extremely efficient ammonia/nitrogen fertilizer generators, but still then the algae due to runoff problem. FWIU we should we asks ng farmers to Please produce granulated fertilizer instead of liquid.) The new biofuel subsidies require no-till farming practices; which other countries are further along at implementing (in or to prevent or reverse soil depletion). Tilling turns topsoil to dirt due to loss of moisture, oxidation, and solar radiation.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- bgnn 2y ago
  tilling with anything more than human power should be banned!
- CrazyStat 2y ago
  The vast majority of plants do not absorb nitrogen from the air. Legumes are the well-known exception.
  - Kbelicius 2y ago
    It isn't legumes that absorb nitrogen from air. It is bacteria that lives on their roots.
    - AngryData 2y ago
      That is true but legumes actively foster those bacteria on their roots and without the legumes most of that bacteria dies. Its a symbiotic relationship.
  - jletroui 2y ago
    That, and most of the other nutrients which was needed to grow the vegies ( like phosphates and potassium) are flushed into the toilet. There will be no long term permaculture without cycling those back at some point. Otherwise, organic or not, this will remains an wasteful open loop.
  - westurner 2y ago
    I think that's why it's good to rotate beans or plant clover cover crop. Three Sisters: Corn, Beans, Squash: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Sisters_(agriculture) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Sisters_(agriculture) Companion planting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companion_planting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companion_planting Nitrogen fixation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_fixation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_fixation
    - westurner 1y ago
      From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43764441 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43764441 : > "Discovery of nitrogen-fixing corn variety could reduce need for added fertilizer" (2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17721741 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17721741
- throeijfjfj 2y ago
  Most plants do not absorb atmospheric nitrogen, but need external nitride fertilizer to grow! That causes serious ground water polution! > The new biofuel subsidies require no-till farming practices This actually depletes soil of nitrogen!
  - westurner 2y ago
    Why do you believe that no-till farming practices deplete soil of nitrogen more than tilling? A plausible hypothesis: tilling destroys the bacteria that get nitrogen to plant roots. Isn't runoff erision the primary preventable source of nitrogen depletion? FWIU residue mulch initially absorbs atmospheric nitrogen instead of the soil absorbing it, but that residue and its additional nitrogen eventually decays into the soil. I have heard that it takes something like five years to successfully completely transform acreage with no-till; and then it's relatively soft and easily plantable and not impacted, so it absorbs and holds water. No-till farmers are not lacking soil samples. What would be a good test of total change in soil nitrogen content (and runoff) given no-till and legacy farming practices? With pressure-injection seeders and laser weeders, how many fewer chemicals are necessary for pro farming?
greenie_beans 2y ago
and easier and time tested and resilient
- lazide 2y ago
  Uh, pretty much every farmer I ever met is going to disagree. Farming is hard, unpredictable (prone to disasters/famine/plagues), and prone to all sorts of problems with soil, weather, etc. The reason modern fertilizer and pesticides are used so widely is they make that fundamentally extremely difficult process easier and more predictable.
  - johnisgood 2y ago
    I am pretty sure he was referring to lab-grown, but as to its accuracy; I cannot comment.
  - greenie_beans 2y ago
    lol yes, farming is hard as fuck. i'm comparing to growing food in high tech ways outside of soil

Plants absorb nitrogen and CO2 from the air and store it in their roots; plants fertilize soil. If you only grow plants with externally-sourced nutrients, that is neither sustainable nor permaculture. Though it may be more efficient to grow without soil; soil depletion isn't prevented by production processes that do not generate topsoil. JADAM is a system developed by a chemicals engineer given what is observed to work in JNF/KNF. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38527264 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38527264 Where do soil amendments come from, and what would deplete those stocks (with consideration for soil depletion)? (Also, there are extremely efficient ammonia/nitrogen fertilizer generators, but still then the algae due to runoff problem. FWIU we should we asks ng farmers to Please produce granulated fertilizer instead of liquid.) The new biofuel subsidies require no-till farming practices; which other countries are further along at implementing (in or to prevent or reverse soil depletion). Tilling turns topsoil to dirt due to loss of moisture, oxidation, and solar radiation.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
bgnn 2y ago
tilling with anything more than human power should be banned!
CrazyStat 2y ago
The vast majority of plants do not absorb nitrogen from the air. Legumes are the well-known exception.
- Kbelicius 2y ago
  It isn't legumes that absorb nitrogen from air. It is bacteria that lives on their roots.
  - AngryData 2y ago
    That is true but legumes actively foster those bacteria on their roots and without the legumes most of that bacteria dies. Its a symbiotic relationship.
- jletroui 2y ago
  That, and most of the other nutrients which was needed to grow the vegies ( like phosphates and potassium) are flushed into the toilet. There will be no long term permaculture without cycling those back at some point. Otherwise, organic or not, this will remains an wasteful open loop.
- westurner 2y ago
  I think that's why it's good to rotate beans or plant clover cover crop. Three Sisters: Corn, Beans, Squash: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Sisters_(agriculture) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Sisters_(agriculture) Companion planting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companion_planting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companion_planting Nitrogen fixation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_fixation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_fixation
  - westurner 1y ago
    From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43764441 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43764441 : > "Discovery of nitrogen-fixing corn variety could reduce need for added fertilizer" (2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17721741 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17721741
throeijfjfj 2y ago
Most plants do not absorb atmospheric nitrogen, but need external nitride fertilizer to grow! That causes serious ground water polution! > The new biofuel subsidies require no-till farming practices This actually depletes soil of nitrogen!
- westurner 2y ago
  Why do you believe that no-till farming practices deplete soil of nitrogen more than tilling? A plausible hypothesis: tilling destroys the bacteria that get nitrogen to plant roots. Isn't runoff erision the primary preventable source of nitrogen depletion? FWIU residue mulch initially absorbs atmospheric nitrogen instead of the soil absorbing it, but that residue and its additional nitrogen eventually decays into the soil. I have heard that it takes something like five years to successfully completely transform acreage with no-till; and then it's relatively soft and easily plantable and not impacted, so it absorbs and holds water. No-till farmers are not lacking soil samples. What would be a good test of total change in soil nitrogen content (and runoff) given no-till and legacy farming practices? With pressure-injection seeders and laser weeders, how many fewer chemicals are necessary for pro farming?

greenie_beans 2y ago

and easier and time tested and resilient

lazide 2y ago
Uh, pretty much every farmer I ever met is going to disagree. Farming is hard, unpredictable (prone to disasters/famine/plagues), and prone to all sorts of problems with soil, weather, etc. The reason modern fertilizer and pesticides are used so widely is they make that fundamentally extremely difficult process easier and more predictable.
- johnisgood 2y ago
  I am pretty sure he was referring to lab-grown, but as to its accuracy; I cannot comment.
- greenie_beans 2y ago
  lol yes, farming is hard as fuck. i'm comparing to growing food in high tech ways outside of soil