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A counter argument is simply the observation that some stuff, it takes time (and effort) before you find the joy in it. Following your recepie, unless (as you s

A counter argument is simply the observation that some stuff, it takes time (and effort) before you find the joy in it. Following your recepie, unless (as you say yourself) lucky teacher or wealthy parents, anything that doesn't incite immediate reward will be of low interest. A kid will probably pick up that general pattern too: if joy can not be found in <T time, don't bother. And kids are not particularly known to be good at long horizon credit assignments, so that T is often hours, day, or maybe a week. My brother (now an professional artist) told me at teenage years "some stuff you just won't understand the beauty and the joy until you've at least put 100 hours in it". And that's true in so many things in life. I'm happy that one of my parent forced me to do some stuff (sports, music, language) even when I complained about it. Only 10 years later did I understand how valuable being able to speak another language fluently with minimal accent is, and how some of my fellow second generation migrants lost that ability, and regret it. (having to go to school on Saturday sucked as a kid)

musicale 2y ago
> "some stuff you just won't understand the beauty and the joy until you've at least put 100 hours in it" Terrific quote and advice. 100 hours seems doable for a lot of things (even if it's not enough time.) If you practice things, often you become better at them, at which point they become more enjoyable. There's definitely a point of fun - the point where something challenging enough to be interesting, and where you can make progress, but not so punishing as to be discouraging. Games often target that fun point.
fakedang 2y ago
> it takes time (and effort) before you find the joy in it. And the right mentor. I distinctly remember that for my master's thesis, I had initially chosen a topic that I loved deeply, but getting constantly rebuffed by my supervising professor who constantly berated me and insulted my intelligence led me to not only hate the dissertation topic (not to mention him also), but hate that field which I loved so much. I later switched topics, to a very different field, under a professor who actually took stride in and complimented my achievements however meagre they were. Net result, we've collaborated on multiple papers together and even after 10 years or so, consider each other friends instead of a mere teacher-student relationship. I could give multiple anecdotes in other completely unrelated fields, from painting and art to driving a stick. Guides and teachers matter in finding the joy in things, even more so than the time invested.

musicale 2y ago

> "some stuff you just won't understand the beauty and the joy until you've at least put 100 hours in it" Terrific quote and advice. 100 hours seems doable for a lot of things (even if it's not enough time.) If you practice things, often you become better at them, at which point they become more enjoyable. There's definitely a point of fun - the point where something challenging enough to be interesting, and where you can make progress, but not so punishing as to be discouraging. Games often target that fun point.

fakedang 2y ago

> it takes time (and effort) before you find the joy in it. And the right mentor. I distinctly remember that for my master's thesis, I had initially chosen a topic that I loved deeply, but getting constantly rebuffed by my supervising professor who constantly berated me and insulted my intelligence led me to not only hate the dissertation topic (not to mention him also), but hate that field which I loved so much. I later switched topics, to a very different field, under a professor who actually took stride in and complimented my achievements however meagre they were. Net result, we've collaborated on multiple papers together and even after 10 years or so, consider each other friends instead of a mere teacher-student relationship. I could give multiple anecdotes in other completely unrelated fields, from painting and art to driving a stick. Guides and teachers matter in finding the joy in things, even more so than the time invested.