6 ms·

'Nobody has done this before': Britain's beloved steam trains trial technology

61 points by beardyw 2y ago

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
franga2000 2y ago
> We had to test whether or not you can even use a touchscreen while you’re hurtling along at up to 75mph Who cares? This is a fucking train! DO NOT use a touchscreen!! Have we not learned anything from modern cars??
- KineticLensman 2y ago
  They care because if steam trains can’t adopt the signalling technology required by the modern UK railways they won’t be allowed to run at all.
  - smallerize 2y ago
    That doesn't address the question at all. Put some physical buttons on it.
    - KineticLensman 2y ago
      > Put some physical buttons on it. Which means developing and integrating new systems to support a tiny number of steam trains. I hate touchscreens myself in vehicles. I hate them. But I'm just commenting on the fact that if the trains can't adopt a technology that already exists, they may have to suspend services.
- blueflow 2y ago
  I've driven under ETCS in a simulator before and i was surprised you need to interact with the screen at all during operation. ETCS doesn't have "attention" buttons you have to press like with the german PZB.
satiric 2y ago
See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43737353 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43737353
neilv 2y ago
To see that touchscreen just bolted onto a literal steam engine, without adornment, steampunk enthusiasts must be dying inside.
- danw1979 2y ago
  I know. At least use brass-plated plastic or whatever for the case. I can’t believe there’s nothing more they could have done to make this more aesthetically pleasing within the £9m budget, for which we appear to have got a robust PC case and an admittedly complicated sounding power supply.
mrweasel 2y ago
In some sense I'm more surprised that someone spend time and money on building a new steam locomotive, rather than the fact that you can fit ETCS on one. Sure, fitting modern signaling equipment on a steam train isn't easy, but it also doesn't feel impossible. Building a brand new steam locomotive, again, sure you can probably do it, but it seems like a lot of expensive work, requiring skills that hasn't been employed in decades and it's probably not really worth doing, financially speaking. Edit: Apparently it is not uncommon to build steam locomotives: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_locomotives_of_the_21st_century#Traditional_steam_construction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_locomotives_of_the_21st_...
- lambdas 2y ago
  I’m a dynamics/kinematics engineer who gets consulted by steam locomotive companies often, and they’re very much worth doing financially speaking. They certainly wouldn’t be your only venture, more “you have a lot of money and love trains” but seats on these things can run for £2k a head and they run basically every day from Spring through to end of Summer.
- pjc50 2y ago
  That's a lot more than I thought: I was aware of Tornado, but not that there had been quite a few more new build steam locos.
- crimony 2y ago
  This is the 90 minute documentary about the development of this particular locomotive. https://youtu.be/c-CbY2d3O1c https://youtu.be/c-CbY2d3O1c
tialaramex 2y ago
Historically steam locomotives have a bad record with actual use of safety systems. IIRC accident investigators found that one locomotive retrofitted with the current minimum allowable safety equipment (TPWS) was routinely being operated in a "cut out" mode intended only for service use but in passenger service. In this mode no actual safety is achieved, the locomotive can (and does) for example pass danger signals without action - which is why accident investigators were looking at it, it had been involved in an accident which should have been impossible because it simply sailed through red lights like a distracted driver playing Candy Crush as their SUV rolls through a busy intersection. On a typical "modern" (ie late 20th century) train like the mainline EMUs I would normally catch when I was a commuter decades ago, the equivalent "cut out" is a glass sealed MCB in the cab, a driver who wants to get rid of this safety feature has to destroy a tell-tale glass seal and company regulations will make them write up why it was necessary then replace it - and of course the automation records each occurrence because why wouldn't it. The paperwork is a faff, so is getting a new unique numbered seal, so drivers actually choose the non-risky option when it's available. On the steam loco, that "cut out" is operated by cutting a cable tie. The cable ties aren't unique of course, and so investigators found countless broken ties littering the dirty cab of the steam locomotive, because you just cut the tie, do what you want and before signing off try to remember to fit a new cable tie. No actual safety delivered.
- lambdas 2y ago
  Yeah, the steam operators raised hell over having to follow the central locking for doors and sealing of windows passengers could stick their head out of. Wasn’t even prospective, preventative action. There was pretty rash series of decapitations/fatalities in the past decade of people who think sticking their head out of a moving train is risk free that lead to this ruling being made mandatory. They kicked off claiming it would ruin the ambience, but really it cost a very pretty penny. They’d do anything to save a few quid; it’s amazing how they used to get cheap oil lube and coal from Russia, and since the war they’ve miraculously been managing to procure the same rates from new companies that have appeared overnight/moved production to sanction-less countries just over the border like Latvia, Lithuania, Kazakhstan etc.
pjd7 2y ago
Caught a steam train that operates on the mainline in NSW, Australia last year. https://www.picnictrain.com.au/ https://www.picnictrain.com.au/ We had to stop & wait at various points on our return day trip for other passenger services to pass us. Had to wait for some freight services to clear a block at a few places too. There was an auxiliary diesel unit not actively used apart from for power AFAIK (and additional emergency mobility should things go kaboom/excess wheel slip). Maybe that has some the extra safety systems on it though.
- mschuster91 2y ago
  > Maybe that has some the extra safety systems on it though. That would be rare, usually the very first carriage has to have all the security systems.
nuc1e0n 2y ago
How very steam punk
adminu 2y ago
How does this cost 9m£? I mean, sure, it was exploratory, but come on, how do you spend that kind of money on sealing some components, adding an alternator and some sensors? What am I missing?
- rightbyte 2y ago
  I guess the locomotive and carriages were in need of renovation?
- fancyfredbot 2y ago
  I had the same thought. I'm guessing rigorous and expensive safety certification, a custom designed steam driven turbo and alternator and stripping back and rebuilding the engine carriage? The fact it's got batteries and an alternator and a turbo suggests some stringent requirements.
- os2warpman 2y ago
  > What am I missing? People don't work for free. Industrial-grade items are expensive. You can't just seal some components. You have to seal those components then conduct rigorous and extensive testing of those components to make sure they're actually sealed. Then you have to document the process. An alternator on a steam locomotive isn't a little thing you can hold in your hands and get from an auto parts store for next to nothing. Here is one of the two new "alternators" installed on 60163 Tornado: https://www.a1steam.com/tornado/news/tornado-details/doubling-the-power https://www.a1steam.com/tornado/news/tornado-details/doublin... I'm a hardware guy. The number 1 thing software guys don't get about hardware is that everything you do costs a shit-ton of money. You can't just download a hardware IDE, register a hardware domain, and vibe code your way to a hardware startup. Well, you can, but the technical term for that is "kickstarter scam". Conversion 2 will be less expensive than 1, conversion 3 will be less expensive than 2, and by the time they get to the 500th conversion it'll be practically cheap.
- nic547 2y ago
  In my understanding it's a complete ETCS L2 system, so it needs a "Euroradio" for GSM-R, a bunch of redudant sensors for Odometry, a balise transmission module, an interface to the train to interact with the brakes and a central computer with a black box. And I assume everything needs to be certified to reach some level of correctness.
huntertwo 2y ago
I’m unable to figure it out - is this just a screen that tells you what the status of the next signal is? Or does it control the train? Also couldn’t they just retrofit a battery somewhere instead of a new steam generator? It also seems like they reinvented the wheel making it rugged. Seems like they’re spending too much money on this project, but it seems to be private money so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Edit: presumably the rest of the train also has power? Is the power draw from this system so intense it needs a new generator? Or does it need the resilience maybe?
- taylorius 2y ago
  "Also couldn’t they just retrofit a battery somewhere instead of a new steam generator?" Kindly hand in your tail coat, stovepipe hat and brass head-up-display monocle on your way out, sir!
- NikkiA 2y ago
  ETH is a lot more than something a simple battery could provide. 1 ETH 'unit' is 5kW of power at 750-1000V AC. A train will usually require much more than 1 unit. HEP cars (aka 'generator cars') are a solution, but the UK never really had them, we had converted diesels called 'Ethels', which are functionally identical to the current practice of tagging a diesel locomotive at idle on the tail of the train, but all of those were scrapped. * Ethel => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_25#Train_Heating_Units https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_25#Train_He...
- nic547 2y ago
  The complete system only controls the train insofar as it can apply the brakes (and probably cut the steam). What it can do depends on the lineside equipment. On newer routes it replaces the signals, keeps track of where the train is, where it has to stop and how fast it can go. It communicates with transponders mounted between the rails and depending on the route via GSM-R with a "Radio Block Center". It might communicate with older, uk-specific safety equipment. It contains a black box to monitor the driver and train. The screen is just a part (the so-called "Driver Machine Interface") of the whole system. And it needs to meet a high level of safety.
paraxion 2y ago
Realistically I have no idea of the scope required for this project and I'm armchair-project-managing... but I feel like "put the ETCS in a different part of the train" would've been my first go-to. Give the driver a 2-way radio headset and have someone in the guard van operating the touchscreen.
dmurray 2y ago
> Since the privatisation of the railways, steam trains have been free to roam the national network subject to there being “white space” in the timetables around service trains. This is a nice quirk that I would definitely someone to have strategically forgotten about during the privatisation process.
- tialaramex 2y ago
  It's actually kind of consequent to privatisation. See, the privatisation says that there need to be lots of companies (otherwise we can't have a "free market" right?) but there's an inconvenient natural monopoly maintaining like, the actual railway track and so on - so, that natural monopoly was made into a separate company. At first the Tories kept pretending it would be profitable, but of course it's national infrastructure, how much does the USA get in direct revenue from its interstates? Nothing of course, they're a cost - you pay for them from public funds because they're a public good, duh. So in practice this is always in effect government owned and costs money even if sometimes it was notionally a "private company" that the government lends money to and never receives repayment. Anyway, the numerous small private train operating companies (TOCs) would get an OK to use these monopoly lines along certain agreed parameters. So e.g. maybe your firm wants to run Plymouth to (London) Waterloo, once an hour from 0600 to 2300, somebody else needs the Southampton to Winchester stretch twice an hour from 0800 to 2200, they timetable all this so there's no conflict - if everybody runs to time. As a result there has to be a mechanism to handle all this arbitrary scheduling among any number of operators, even though most routes, most of the time have a single incumbent and nobody else. An enormous waste just because of ideology. Three notionally profitable (though in fact never actually profitable) businesses can exist in this environment beyond the traditional TOCs which operate a regular scheduled train service ordinary people will use. One is little private tours, like we'll buy one service a week from Waterloo to Winchester on a Sunday afternoon in the summer, we'll sell Famous Steam Tree beer on that train and charge £80 (no beer included) for all customers, plus £50 if you want an ordinary train home afterwards. If we can secure a genuine refurbished steam train we'll use that. Another is private trains, closer to what you see in a Western movie sometimes. Jim and Sarah are very wealthy, they want to get married in a nice castle that's out in the sticks, for $$$ we'll sort out the authorisation so then their guests all just show up at the railway station in a city somewhere with like an airport and so on, they board the train, maybe it's a nice old steam train, maybe not, and we go direct, non-stop to the closest stop to the castle where the wedding will happen. This is crazy expensive, like, private jet expensive, but it is possible because of the "Open access" requirement where businesses can pay to use the railway lines. The third, and one you're most likely to have glimpsed, are tiny rogue operators. Buy (well, lease) a couple of trains, get yourself routed for back and forth and offer novel routes. This would genuinely have been harder to arrange in the British Rail era, you'd need BR to decide it was worth having this weird new route. But the reason BR wouldn't have gone for this was that it was usually one person's weird dream journey and few actual customers wanted this new route, so it was unprofitable. For example a company operated from Wrexham and Marylebone, running a few trains per day, and I believe never breaking even in their 3-5 years of existence.
throw0101d 2y ago
The Green Signals (UK rail) podcast had an episode/segment on this: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T962HGvN_Q4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T962HGvN_Q4
leeter 2y ago
Related: Union Pacific fitted 4014 with Positive Train Control, the US version of this tech https://www.up.com/aboutup/community/inside_track/big-boy-technology-it-240613.htm https://www.up.com/aboutup/community/inside_track/big-boy-te... They are/were also planning on adding it to 844 too.

61 points by beardyw 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

franga2000 2y ago

> We had to test whether or not you can even use a touchscreen while you’re hurtling along at up to 75mph Who cares? This is a fucking train! DO NOT use a touchscreen!! Have we not learned anything from modern cars??

KineticLensman 2y ago
They care because if steam trains can’t adopt the signalling technology required by the modern UK railways they won’t be allowed to run at all.
- smallerize 2y ago
  That doesn't address the question at all. Put some physical buttons on it.
  - KineticLensman 2y ago
    > Put some physical buttons on it. Which means developing and integrating new systems to support a tiny number of steam trains. I hate touchscreens myself in vehicles. I hate them. But I'm just commenting on the fact that if the trains can't adopt a technology that already exists, they may have to suspend services.
blueflow 2y ago
I've driven under ETCS in a simulator before and i was surprised you need to interact with the screen at all during operation. ETCS doesn't have "attention" buttons you have to press like with the german PZB.

satiric 2y ago

See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43737353 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43737353

neilv 2y ago

To see that touchscreen just bolted onto a literal steam engine, without adornment, steampunk enthusiasts must be dying inside.

danw1979 2y ago
I know. At least use brass-plated plastic or whatever for the case. I can’t believe there’s nothing more they could have done to make this more aesthetically pleasing within the £9m budget, for which we appear to have got a robust PC case and an admittedly complicated sounding power supply.

mrweasel 2y ago

In some sense I'm more surprised that someone spend time and money on building a new steam locomotive, rather than the fact that you can fit ETCS on one. Sure, fitting modern signaling equipment on a steam train isn't easy, but it also doesn't feel impossible. Building a brand new steam locomotive, again, sure you can probably do it, but it seems like a lot of expensive work, requiring skills that hasn't been employed in decades and it's probably not really worth doing, financially speaking. Edit: Apparently it is not uncommon to build steam locomotives: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_locomotives_of_the_21st_century#Traditional_steam_construction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_locomotives_of_the_21st_...

lambdas 2y ago
I’m a dynamics/kinematics engineer who gets consulted by steam locomotive companies often, and they’re very much worth doing financially speaking. They certainly wouldn’t be your only venture, more “you have a lot of money and love trains” but seats on these things can run for £2k a head and they run basically every day from Spring through to end of Summer.
pjc50 2y ago
That's a lot more than I thought: I was aware of Tornado, but not that there had been quite a few more new build steam locos.
crimony 2y ago
This is the 90 minute documentary about the development of this particular locomotive. https://youtu.be/c-CbY2d3O1c https://youtu.be/c-CbY2d3O1c

tialaramex 2y ago

Historically steam locomotives have a bad record with actual use of safety systems. IIRC accident investigators found that one locomotive retrofitted with the current minimum allowable safety equipment (TPWS) was routinely being operated in a "cut out" mode intended only for service use but in passenger service. In this mode no actual safety is achieved, the locomotive can (and does) for example pass danger signals without action - which is why accident investigators were looking at it, it had been involved in an accident which should have been impossible because it simply sailed through red lights like a distracted driver playing Candy Crush as their SUV rolls through a busy intersection. On a typical "modern" (ie late 20th century) train like the mainline EMUs I would normally catch when I was a commuter decades ago, the equivalent "cut out" is a glass sealed MCB in the cab, a driver who wants to get rid of this safety feature has to destroy a tell-tale glass seal and company regulations will make them write up why it was necessary then replace it - and of course the automation records each occurrence because why wouldn't it. The paperwork is a faff, so is getting a new unique numbered seal, so drivers actually choose the non-risky option when it's available. On the steam loco, that "cut out" is operated by cutting a cable tie. The cable ties aren't unique of course, and so investigators found countless broken ties littering the dirty cab of the steam locomotive, because you just cut the tie, do what you want and before signing off try to remember to fit a new cable tie. No actual safety delivered.

lambdas 2y ago
Yeah, the steam operators raised hell over having to follow the central locking for doors and sealing of windows passengers could stick their head out of. Wasn’t even prospective, preventative action. There was pretty rash series of decapitations/fatalities in the past decade of people who think sticking their head out of a moving train is risk free that lead to this ruling being made mandatory. They kicked off claiming it would ruin the ambience, but really it cost a very pretty penny. They’d do anything to save a few quid; it’s amazing how they used to get cheap oil lube and coal from Russia, and since the war they’ve miraculously been managing to procure the same rates from new companies that have appeared overnight/moved production to sanction-less countries just over the border like Latvia, Lithuania, Kazakhstan etc.

pjd7 2y ago

Caught a steam train that operates on the mainline in NSW, Australia last year. https://www.picnictrain.com.au/ https://www.picnictrain.com.au/ We had to stop & wait at various points on our return day trip for other passenger services to pass us. Had to wait for some freight services to clear a block at a few places too. There was an auxiliary diesel unit not actively used apart from for power AFAIK (and additional emergency mobility should things go kaboom/excess wheel slip). Maybe that has some the extra safety systems on it though.

mschuster91 2y ago
> Maybe that has some the extra safety systems on it though. That would be rare, usually the very first carriage has to have all the security systems.

nuc1e0n 2y ago

How very steam punk

adminu 2y ago

How does this cost 9m£? I mean, sure, it was exploratory, but come on, how do you spend that kind of money on sealing some components, adding an alternator and some sensors? What am I missing?

rightbyte 2y ago
I guess the locomotive and carriages were in need of renovation?
fancyfredbot 2y ago
I had the same thought. I'm guessing rigorous and expensive safety certification, a custom designed steam driven turbo and alternator and stripping back and rebuilding the engine carriage? The fact it's got batteries and an alternator and a turbo suggests some stringent requirements.
os2warpman 2y ago
> What am I missing? People don't work for free. Industrial-grade items are expensive. You can't just seal some components. You have to seal those components then conduct rigorous and extensive testing of those components to make sure they're actually sealed. Then you have to document the process. An alternator on a steam locomotive isn't a little thing you can hold in your hands and get from an auto parts store for next to nothing. Here is one of the two new "alternators" installed on 60163 Tornado: https://www.a1steam.com/tornado/news/tornado-details/doubling-the-power https://www.a1steam.com/tornado/news/tornado-details/doublin... I'm a hardware guy. The number 1 thing software guys don't get about hardware is that everything you do costs a shit-ton of money. You can't just download a hardware IDE, register a hardware domain, and vibe code your way to a hardware startup. Well, you can, but the technical term for that is "kickstarter scam". Conversion 2 will be less expensive than 1, conversion 3 will be less expensive than 2, and by the time they get to the 500th conversion it'll be practically cheap.
nic547 2y ago
In my understanding it's a complete ETCS L2 system, so it needs a "Euroradio" for GSM-R, a bunch of redudant sensors for Odometry, a balise transmission module, an interface to the train to interact with the brakes and a central computer with a black box. And I assume everything needs to be certified to reach some level of correctness.

huntertwo 2y ago

I’m unable to figure it out - is this just a screen that tells you what the status of the next signal is? Or does it control the train? Also couldn’t they just retrofit a battery somewhere instead of a new steam generator? It also seems like they reinvented the wheel making it rugged. Seems like they’re spending too much money on this project, but it seems to be private money so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Edit: presumably the rest of the train also has power? Is the power draw from this system so intense it needs a new generator? Or does it need the resilience maybe?

taylorius 2y ago
"Also couldn’t they just retrofit a battery somewhere instead of a new steam generator?" Kindly hand in your tail coat, stovepipe hat and brass head-up-display monocle on your way out, sir!
NikkiA 2y ago
ETH is a lot more than something a simple battery could provide. 1 ETH 'unit' is 5kW of power at 750-1000V AC. A train will usually require much more than 1 unit. HEP cars (aka 'generator cars') are a solution, but the UK never really had them, we had converted diesels called 'Ethels', which are functionally identical to the current practice of tagging a diesel locomotive at idle on the tail of the train, but all of those were scrapped. * Ethel => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_25#Train_Heating_Units https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_25#Train_He...
nic547 2y ago
The complete system only controls the train insofar as it can apply the brakes (and probably cut the steam). What it can do depends on the lineside equipment. On newer routes it replaces the signals, keeps track of where the train is, where it has to stop and how fast it can go. It communicates with transponders mounted between the rails and depending on the route via GSM-R with a "Radio Block Center". It might communicate with older, uk-specific safety equipment. It contains a black box to monitor the driver and train. The screen is just a part (the so-called "Driver Machine Interface") of the whole system. And it needs to meet a high level of safety.

paraxion 2y ago

Realistically I have no idea of the scope required for this project and I'm armchair-project-managing... but I feel like "put the ETCS in a different part of the train" would've been my first go-to. Give the driver a 2-way radio headset and have someone in the guard van operating the touchscreen.

dmurray 2y ago

> Since the privatisation of the railways, steam trains have been free to roam the national network subject to there being “white space” in the timetables around service trains. This is a nice quirk that I would definitely someone to have strategically forgotten about during the privatisation process.

tialaramex 2y ago
It's actually kind of consequent to privatisation. See, the privatisation says that there need to be lots of companies (otherwise we can't have a "free market" right?) but there's an inconvenient natural monopoly maintaining like, the actual railway track and so on - so, that natural monopoly was made into a separate company. At first the Tories kept pretending it would be profitable, but of course it's national infrastructure, how much does the USA get in direct revenue from its interstates? Nothing of course, they're a cost - you pay for them from public funds because they're a public good, duh. So in practice this is always in effect government owned and costs money even if sometimes it was notionally a "private company" that the government lends money to and never receives repayment. Anyway, the numerous small private train operating companies (TOCs) would get an OK to use these monopoly lines along certain agreed parameters. So e.g. maybe your firm wants to run Plymouth to (London) Waterloo, once an hour from 0600 to 2300, somebody else needs the Southampton to Winchester stretch twice an hour from 0800 to 2200, they timetable all this so there's no conflict - if everybody runs to time. As a result there has to be a mechanism to handle all this arbitrary scheduling among any number of operators, even though most routes, most of the time have a single incumbent and nobody else. An enormous waste just because of ideology. Three notionally profitable (though in fact never actually profitable) businesses can exist in this environment beyond the traditional TOCs which operate a regular scheduled train service ordinary people will use. One is little private tours, like we'll buy one service a week from Waterloo to Winchester on a Sunday afternoon in the summer, we'll sell Famous Steam Tree beer on that train and charge £80 (no beer included) for all customers, plus £50 if you want an ordinary train home afterwards. If we can secure a genuine refurbished steam train we'll use that. Another is private trains, closer to what you see in a Western movie sometimes. Jim and Sarah are very wealthy, they want to get married in a nice castle that's out in the sticks, for $$$ we'll sort out the authorisation so then their guests all just show up at the railway station in a city somewhere with like an airport and so on, they board the train, maybe it's a nice old steam train, maybe not, and we go direct, non-stop to the closest stop to the castle where the wedding will happen. This is crazy expensive, like, private jet expensive, but it is possible because of the "Open access" requirement where businesses can pay to use the railway lines. The third, and one you're most likely to have glimpsed, are tiny rogue operators. Buy (well, lease) a couple of trains, get yourself routed for back and forth and offer novel routes. This would genuinely have been harder to arrange in the British Rail era, you'd need BR to decide it was worth having this weird new route. But the reason BR wouldn't have gone for this was that it was usually one person's weird dream journey and few actual customers wanted this new route, so it was unprofitable. For example a company operated from Wrexham and Marylebone, running a few trains per day, and I believe never breaking even in their 3-5 years of existence.

throw0101d 2y ago

The Green Signals (UK rail) podcast had an episode/segment on this: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T962HGvN_Q4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T962HGvN_Q4

leeter 2y ago

Related: Union Pacific fitted 4014 with Positive Train Control, the US version of this tech https://www.up.com/aboutup/community/inside_track/big-boy-technology-it-240613.htm https://www.up.com/aboutup/community/inside_track/big-boy-te... They are/were also planning on adding it to 844 too.